RE: [-empyre-] the use in girls coming

Yes, Millie. But you don't HAVE to participate in
those lists. While you CAN have a discussion here,
with to prejudice or male oriented discussions.

The same applies to porn, soap operas, role playing

The fact is that the medium allows you to do it.



 --- Millie Niss <> wrote: > Another
issue is that a lot of the net "community,"
> especially the
> noncommercial, "old" internet we all like to praise
> is built around
> typically male interests or male ways of dealing
> with them.  For example,
> there is a lot of community around hacking unix
> kernels, working on PHP
> source development, discussing future Ethernet
> standards, etc. etc.  I don't
> mean to say that any of these thinsg are male, or
> that computer science is
> male, but there is something masculine about the
> particular obsessiveness
> and detailedness of these pursuits.
> I am female and I have studied and read computer
> science stuff.  I USE PHP
> for example.  I am ineterested in making things with
> it (-- I want to build
> a database interface using PHO and Flash that is
> really intuitive an
> graphical, to be used as the front end for a
> database of mental health
> services in NYC for Medicaid benefiuciaries.  If
> there is something that
> that the PHP kanguage can't do that I need for this
> (which I doubt), I;d
> write email to these langauge development people, in
> the hope that maybe
> some future version down the pipeline has what I
> want.  But I am not
> planning on getting involved in a deep discussion
> about the order of the
> arghuments and which ones will be optional in the
> new function will probably
> never exist.
> When I say that thesee fol, the language definitioon
> people , have a
> community, I mean it.  They have web sites, email
> lists, files that they
> pass around.  They know each other on a first name
> basis, across continents.
> They consider each other to be friends, and gain
> social benefit from their
> interchanges, nit just the pleasure of technical
> exchange.
> Thare is no such community around the more feminine
> "big picture" usues of
> the same technilogy-- sure there are newsgroups, but
> nothing focused.  There
> is no place to go to discuss my project in its large
> ideas -0- how to make a
> database not look like a database.  I'm thinking of
> something like Venn
> diagrams that you would select from or draw, I'm not
> sure yet.  Some way of
> visually showing intersecting this data set with
> that one or choosing
> certain data from among your data.  Soething which
> would look fluid, like a
> work of art.  I want to discuss this,  It is a
> feminine concept.  I can only
> discuss whether to use an array of objects or an
> object cointaining an
> array, and not even really that as there is not that
> big a community of
> application developers.  All the community aspects
> are centered around the
> tool itself.
> This seems typically male--  give me a tool and I
> want to buil.  They want
> to study the tool and improve it...
> Of course my whole idea in this post is sexist -- it
> is a comonplace that
> women see the big picture while men see the details
> -- but I think the kind
> of community I have described are af little
> intereste to many women, and
> made early entry to the internet community hard for
> women: where did they
> fit into this world?  Then when the commercial
> services such as AOL moved
> in, they needed to capture female dollars, and you
> get the weird situation
> where more women are using commercial services and
> belong to artificial,
> corporate-organized "communities" whereas men have
> the old internet and its
> descendants.
> Some women, such as myself, entered the net early
> and made do with what
> little there was that served femaie interests (I did
> newsgroups, and spent a
> lot of time on rec.arts.books along with some
> comoputer things and some
> support things) while most non techically educated
> women had no reason to be
> online other than email their non electroinic
> friends, and mostly this
> didn't work because these people had trouble logging
> on and didn't check
> email frequently enough and basically got the short
> shrift.
> Millie
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> []On Behalf
> Of Patrick Lichty
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:13 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] the use in girls coming
> > Exactly. But, in cyberspace, whose hegemony is it?
> A
> > male one? How can that be?
> Commerce, military, governmental.  The forces that
> control the Net, all of
> which are all largely male
> > So, my post was offensive and I'm in the minority
> of
> > offenders,
> To make that statement is to therefore assume that
> you are trying to
> conversely assume the place of the 'oppressed',
> which isn't the case.  I
> would not call your comment offensive, but perhaps
> at issue with some
> perspectives.  Also to call yourself an offender
> assumes that you actually
> did commit an offense, which I also disagree with. 
> You didn't.
> while the initiator is entitled to post
> > provocative meaningless Manifestos we should all
> > worship? Just because it mentions (completely out
> of
> > context) the untouchable FEMINISM?
> Feminism is hardly untouchable or immutable.  It has
> its many threads and
> internal conflicts, such as the conflicts between
> the radical/lesbian
> feminist clade and the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
> feminists.  Both are in
> favor of strong female role models, but many of
> these clades often sate that
> the other aren't 'really feminists' due to their
> positions.  Saying that
> there is only one kind of feminism, and one that is
> beyond criticism is to
> place one's self in a very questionable position, on
> either side.  The
> question of feminism is far more complex than saying
> that there is a gender
> border that is non-porous and non-egotiable, which
> is to say that humanity
> does not find any malleability in terms of gender. 
> That's defninitely not
> the case.
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum

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