RE: [-empyre-] Digi dos

I don't quite follow this idea of immersion yet. Probably because I
never truly experienced it myself. This is something people correlate to
3D, because it gives you an environment. If this is the case, and we are
seeking for the 'illusion' of being there and suspended disbelief, I
confess I had a much better feeling of that sort before The Last Supper
by Leonardo da Vinci in Milano, where the illusion of the space is
recreated in a superb way. Or with Andrea Pozzo fantastic depicted
illusions in Rome's churches. Or with the Sistine Chapel. Better than I
ever had with any interactive 3D computer art I've seen so far. A good
concert can involve you in its own space (connections between music and
architecture have been deeply explored, especially by Wittkower, ISBN:
0471977632). And I never found particularly "immersive" something I see
on the 15" surface of my laptop monitor :-) The separation is neat and
clear. I also tried caves with supercomputers, but even there it's quite
hard to believe it, isn't it? People who pray are also immersed in their
own world, and this is why you can enter a church in the middle of busy
London and find yourself in an oasis of peace, where is mind can fly

About your other point, the voice over may help. Possibly even the
electronic agent. But nothing would substitute the human intervention.
'Flesh' as you call it, is still the best medium of all (I would
distinguish humans from chickens, anyhow :-). But that comes back to the
linear narrative. Greenaway on one side (movies) and Italo Calvino in
literature, have explored the possibilities of crossing paths and
multiple simultaneous narratives, in that they are simultaneously
presented on the screen/pages for people to choose their own. If on a
winter's night a traveller ISBN: 0749399236 by Calvino does exactly
that. But still we go from page 1 to page 200.

A serious games developer, Demis Hassabis from Elixir Studios, once told
me that he could think of developing multiple narratives, but ultimately
that does not involve any freedom for the user, as all the possibilities
must be foreseen by the developer, and creates a hell for the latter.
And finally, people want to be entertained.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> [] On Behalf Of 
> Melinda Rackham
> Sent: 27 March 2002 07:32
> To:
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] Digi dos
> > it's me or it may be that the ultimate experience, still, needs a 
> > performer, and that, if this is the case, the narrative can only be 
> > linear.
> hey thanx for that feedback cristiano,
> ..would an electronic directive agent (as damien suggests) or 
> merely a voice over narration with a precoded animation give 
> the same emotional effect? is it different when you are 
> immerresed as an avatar in the space, or as a single user 
> with an outside perspective? was the pluggin different making 
> the experience different: -) ? is it because the space is so 
> open that its not clear what to do in it and its nice to sit 
> back and be given some direction..? what makes the diffrence 
> between a fully emotional and immersive experience and the 
> looking at an animation which goes back to what tamiko and 
> joseph were saying really early on in this discussion about 
> limiting the users range of navigation and the scale and the 
> filling of the visual field with the image ...does size 
> matter? maybe it does need to be big, enveloping and lush to 
> be a  emotionaly rewarding experience for some people.. but 
> ive had emails from people whove only ever seen the same work 
> online who get totally immersed as well.. and i know people 
> moved to tears (like ive been as well ) by non 3d 
> pieces.. so that doesnt seem to explain it..
> but perhpas the combination of flesh and 3space makes 
> immersion a really comfortable transhuman experience, where 
> you get the sense of  personal immediacy and theatricality 
> melded with the intimacy of the machine environment.. and you 
> dont even have to be an active agent in the immersion.. as a 
> a parallel with aurieas dissapointing experience in ephemere, 
> and being distracted by the lo- res after experiencing a high 
> res smoothly rendered environment from the video 
> documentation as better. maybe its like the difference 
> between film and the or the other is useally 
> disapointing to most people.
> so we cant talk about an artwork divorced from its delivery 
> medium and context. i guess this is why tracy ermins old 
> knickers are "art" in a gallery and "laundry" at home m
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cristiano Bianchi" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 7:00 PM
> Subject: RE: [-empyre-] Digi dos
> > ----Angela Main
> > > For me the interesting thing is the engagement of the viewer or 
> > > participant, whether that is done with a simple image or 
> a VR helmet 
> > > with all the bells and whistles. the most evolutionary 
> thing about 
> > > the possibilities of 3 D and VR are the interactivity 
> opportunities 
> > > - the shift for an audience or viewer to a different level of 
> > > engagement, away from a less passive, culturally mediated 
> view. This 
> > > can serve to integrate an internal `personal' experience with an 
> > > external view and that to my mind is where the jump
> > is.
> >
> > I agree to the theoretical principal. But this, in my 
> opinion, falls 
> > short in reality. The first time I saw Empyrean was in 
> Glasgow (UK), 
> > where Melinda presented it before an astonished audience, 
> which, until 
> > then, had heard papers about Java Beans in retrieving 
> improbable data. 
> > It was one of the best artistical and emotional experiences 
> I remember 
> > in my life. Melinda went through her piece, bit by bit, 
> illustrating 
> > (not "explaining", thank you Melinda for that!) a bit of 
> their context 
> > and background. Simply beautyful.
> >
> > But when I later went to see it online, despite trying and being in 
> > the right mood, I couldn't replicate the experience. They were the 
> > same objects and animation, but the artistic expression was gone. 
> > After joining this list I tried again, but that feeling 
> stays. I'm not 
> > sure if it's me or it may be that the ultimate experience, still, 
> > needs a performer, and that, if this is the case, the narrative can 
> > only be linear.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Angela Main
> > > One of the most pleasurable things about digi work is
> > > that it evolves - it follows organic principles.
> >
> > I really don't get this. How do you mean it evolves? As far 
> as I know, 
> > it can only evolve id the "artist" (or coder) changes or adds code. 
> > Unless you talk about genetically generated shapes. But I'm rather 
> > skeptical about their artistic value. And even in this 
> case, they only 
> > evolve as a projection of a will from their creator/coder. With the 
> > difference that it takes much more expertiuse in coding to generate 
> > shapes dynamically.
> >
> > Cristiano Bianchi
> > keepthinking
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > empyre mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> empyre mailing list

This archive was generated by a fusion of Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition) and MHonArc 2.6.8.