RE: [-empyre-] Women in Art, and Technology

or as Jim have said I would like to see books and texts showing works of
good artists, books joining together excellent  artists of both genders.
It is a way to show that in spite of being different, man and woman are
able to do excellent work, so excellent that can be shown together.

Hi all,

I have been enjoying following this conversation as a lurker - thanks! 

I think one of the problems is that books like you describe above (about
excellent artists of both genders) do happen (there are many books that
survey contemporary art and include women artists just as "artists", for
example), but that in many fields and particularly in technical fields,
the writers of these books are still (despite feminism) blind to their
own biases that have been produced by a society in which men hold the
reins of power.

I'm not positing an "all males are evil" or "it's all a conspiracy" kind
of feminism - only that we need books like Judy's with an exclusive
focus on women in order to highlight stories about technology and art
that might not otherwise get told. These stories contribute to shaping
our reality and our possibilities. So, for example, Isabel, your mother
had probably never heard stories of a girl taking the technical classes.
Thus, it was simply not even in her realm of possible futures that she
was thinking of for you. 

It's been interesting and inspiring for me as a female programmer, for
example, to meet other female programmers. A female math teacher I had
in college (a professor in the all-male faculty) was a huge inspiration
for me. There is less possibility and less excuse for dropping out
("Well, if they can do it, then so can I..."!)

People change the world through political action, violence, rebellion,
etc. One of the very most powerful means of change is to simply tell the
stories that describe the world you want to live in.


-----Original Message-----
[] On Behalf Of arteonline
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 6:32 PM
To: soft_skinned_space
Subject: Re: [-empyre-] Women in Art, and Technology

Well Isabel,

I am always speaking about our times and things I have been observing
nowadays or at the end of last decade. My experience with boys and girls
was only with computers. I am sure that some of those girls were
brilliant in maths, for example. I am not saying that women are
inferior, do not forget that I wrote a dissertation about women, I only
said that the boys I observed were better than girls with computers.
However, every day I receive a link to a good work done by woman...

I am not speaking about my own experience, because as every woman of my
age I had a very traditional education, but I think that it is past .
Things change and here in Brazil, I am sure that boys and girls have
much more freedon of choice that I had.

I finish my previous email saying:  "I think that in the past Beauvoir
(Simone de) and others's texts were very important to woman (including
me) , but  nowadays I really do not know ..." Do you understand that
this "nowadays I really do not know" was a reference to new texts
focusing only women and not the old texts, which I think were very
important to all the things women get ? Perhaps I have not been clear.

I would like to add that I do not think that we do not have to write
texts or books about women, what I think is that is the right time to
think about human beings and not only about women. Feminism is really a
litle bit old for me.

We need of being two...
so that the wheat will be hight

or as Jim have said I would like to see books and texts showing works of
good artists, books joining together excellent  artists of both genders.
It is a way to show that in spite of being different, man and woman are
able to do excellent work, so excellent that can be shown together.



----- Original Message -----
From: "isabel saij" <>
To: "soft_skinned_space" <>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [-empyre-] Women in Art, and Technology

> There are several elements in your question Regina :
> -my personal story
> -the relation mother/daughter as described by Barrie
> -the current situation for girls wanting to study in a technical field
> In my story, no question of permission : my mother decided for me (I 
> was
> 14/15) that I would be afraid of the boys (!!??) during the technical
> mechanical workshops (10 hours of practice weekly) + 30 hours general
> studies (a lot of maths = 40 hours weekly).
> With this strange argument I was sent to scientifical studies and then
> literature and philosophy. Note : I was never afraid of my father and
> brother.
> Other remarks :
> technical studies didn't come as an option for my brother, because he
> didn't have the ability.
> Was my education so typical ? I never played with dolls (had bakelite
> dolls any sensuality ? not at all compared with teddy bears) but
> my young sister did play with dolls.
> Sometimes I cut their hairs and gave them a bath, just to see...
> how they swam or not !
> To play with toy cars (with suspension) was much more attractive !
> Even my grandmother -very strict and conservative- understood that
> dolls were definitively nothing for me, and she bought me toy cars
> every thursday...
> I read with interest what Barrie wrote. It's obviously a family where 
> children are loved and encouraged in their development without regard 
> of gender. That's great ! A key point is the relation parent/children.

> A child is loved or not. In my case my best enemy is my mother.
> And my father never understood the situation, he was weak
> and unconcerned.
> What is the situation for girls nowadays ? I don't know.
> My impression is that the situation is better.
> I would appreciate to get reactions/information/studies
> on that point.
> The last question is to know if a book/discussion about
> women and technology is useful.
> I think it is. Some women showed the way : Marie Curie as
> a scientist (don't forget she was a foreigner in France) Simone de 
> Beauvoir as a writer,... Recently on "Arte" (french/german TV 
> broadcaster with a cultural content) Alice Schwarzer (german feminist)

> said that what girls and young women now can do, is related to actions

> of some women in the past. If I can make a parallel : to speak about 
> racism, fascism, shoah,... is always necessary. The danger of 
> forgetting is huge and the repetition of history possible.
> Isabel
> > Barrie wrote:
> >
> > I know that maybe this month's discussion is not about differences
> > gender but about examining Women in Art, and Technology...
> >
> > Well Barrie, for me, if it had not differences between the two 
> > genders, there was not a book called "Women, Art, and Technology". 
> > So, your contribution to the discussion is completely valid. It was 
> > just what
> > Saij done, when she wrote about the education of the girls.
> >
> > Isabel, do you think that nowadays, if a girl want to follow 
> > technollogy studies, she will not receive the permission from her 
> > mother? ... I
> > do not know. On the other hand, I worked during sometime as a
coordenator of
> > an info room of a high school . What I discovered there is that boys

> > are much more interested in computers than girls. They received 
> > always the
> > stimulus to do a work, but the boys are always much more interested 
> > and always got the best works and sometimes keep on studying and 
> > searching information about the proposal even when the work was 
> > finished. What I really do not know is if this difference occurs 
> > because girls and boys
> > really differents or because the education of girls and boys 
> > valorizes different things. I bet that the differences of education 
> > are changing
> > there are centuries where the standards of education only allow the
> > of the machine to men.
> > Perhaps is because of this that Jim asked: "Anything in the book 
> > about different levels of fear, or different attitudes about/toward 
> > fear of technology associated with gender?"
> > About links to the book, Last month I searched for them, but I only 
> > got
> > one (amazon), below, the link and the text we find there.
> >
> >
> >
> > 1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4888030-1867239?v=glance&s=books&vi=reviews
> >
> >
> > Book Info
> > Text is a compendium of the work of women artists who have played a
> > role in the development of new media practice. Includes overviews of

> > the history and foundations of the field, classic papers by women 
> > working in
> > and technology, and a series of critical essays looking to the 
> > future. Illustrated. DLC: Art and technology--History--20th century.
> >
> > About the Author
> > Judy Malloy is an electronic fiction and Internet pioneer and editor

> > of
> > electronic publication Arts Wire Current.
> >
> > Book Description
> >
> > Although women have been at the forefront of art and technology
creation, no
> > source has adequately documented their core contributions to the 
> > field.
> > which originated in a Leonardo journal project of the same name, is 
> > a compendium of the work of women artists who have played a central 
> > role
> > the development of new media practice. The book includes overviews 
> > of
> > history and foundations of the field by, among others, artists 
> > Sheila
> > and Kathy Brew; classic papers by women working in art and 
> > technology; papers written expressly for this book by women whose 
> > work is currently shaping and reshaping the field; and a series of 
> > critical essays that
> > to the future. Artist contributors include computer graphics artists
> > Allen and Donna Cox; video artists Dara Birnbaum, Joan Jonas, 
> > Valerie
> > and Steina Vasulka; composers Cecile Le Prado, Pauline Oliveros, and
> > Z; interactive artists Jennifer Hall and Blyth Hazen, Agnes Heged?nn

> > Hershman, and Sonya Rapoport; virtual reality artists Char Davies 
> > and
> > Laurel; net artists Anna Couey, Monika Fleischmann and Wolfgang 
> > Strauss, Nancy Paterson, and Sandy Stone; and choreographer Dawn 
> > Stoppiello.
> > include Margaret Morse, Jaishree Odin, Patric Prince, and Zoe Sofia.
> >
> > You will find this text (november news) also at,
> > click first floor, books, letter M. You will realize that diferently
> > other books there, this book has not a catalog record, but only the 
> > text above. It occurs, because to buy a book from Amazon, here in 
> > Rio de
> > means a long time of waiting or lots of money to get the fast 
> > delivery.
> > make things worse, when the book arrives, as it is writing in 
> > English, I will need the triple of the time you need to read the 
> > book...
> >
> > My today question is:
> >
> > "Will not be a kind of discrimination against women to write books 
> > or
> > where the focus is only this gender?"
> >
> > I have thought a lot about this lately, perhaps we that wrote 
> > recently
> > write now about women are doing just the opposite that we intended 
> > or
> > to do. I hope you can understand me. Why have we the necessity to 
> > show
> > woman can work in this or that field? What are we intending to 
> > prove?
> > masculine gender do not have this necessity at all.
> > I think that in the past Beauvoir and others's texts were very 
> > important
> > woman , but  nowadays I really do not know ...
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Regina
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > empyre forum
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum

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