RE: [-empyre-] Re:oh my god

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Jim Andrews wrote:

> godel's work, for instance, is about formal language systems, and the
> results apply across the field of math and also, as we see via Turing's
> related work, to computing problems and what is possible (and impossible) in
> computing. The study of formal language systems, at least in math, used to
> be called meta-mathematics. Though there are applied areas of it, it is
> primarily part of pure mathematics (as opposed to 'applied').
Of course! Which is where Penrose begins in his critique of non-quantum
operations in the mind.

However with organism, via the work of Land and Heinz von Foerster,
there's also gestural logics - superimpositions, that operate where strict
mathematics falls short. (See his work on color theory and Horn, later

> also, the philosophical implications of the work of godel have been deeply
> felt concerning the nature of human knowledge.


> it used to be that physics was the exemplar of the application of
> mathematics in the world. but now, in our age where computers are so
> prevalent and important in so many areas of endevor, the mathematics of
> computer science is at least as prominent. and the mathematics of computer
> science is, at its base, concerned with the properties of languages, given
> that computing is, in a certain sense, all about processing strings of
> characters, processing language, whether the characters encode text or other
> media, whether the characters are numbers or letters or whatever.
I'd say the properties of formal languages. When MIT tried to apply for
example Chomsky, they fell short (from Minsky).

> like undecidable propositions, which are neither independent axioms nor
> theorems.
Which is where nonstandard analysis comes in.

> i was a bit surprised to read you say that "I find the world meaningless,
> human life, culture, etc. ultimately
> meaningless, except what we assign to it. There's no rationality to the
> world, no ultimate logic. There is jostling, juggling, from the levels of
> strings, virtual particles, on up to political parties. "
> No principle of peace? Or whatever you want to call it. Or Karma. Tamara
> speaks of finding "harmony". Or 'love' or 'cooperation'?
No, nothing outside of human (or other organic) culture. Love and
cooperation are survival strategies.

After reading far too much about Auschwitz and the medical trials at
Nuremberg - I have no belief in karma or harmony whatsoever.

> When I was young, I read literature with passion, seeking many things, to be
> a writer, understanding, meaning. I remember feeling that MacBeth and Lao
> Tse came to the same realization, that, as you say, the world is meaningless
> except what we assign to it. For MacBeth, all that was left, then, were
> beasts and best to be king of the beasts. For Lao Tse, the freedom afforded
> by the same realization was to be explored more fully. For me, much of the
> 'meaning of life' is in making things with and/or for others, though I am
> rarely very good at collaboration in art.

I agree; I'm on the Lao Tse end of things myself.

- Alan

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