Re: [-empyre-] -empyprean- signal to noise

Hi Kathy,

Things must of been a bit manic trying to mix a festival, networking and getting involved in a discussion on a list such as Empyre. I think that I would have got a bit flustered and distracted as well, if I was trying to do all these things at once...

As mentioned in the post before, I was was a bit confused (disppointed even) that people were not really into discussing about the 'subject' of lists on here, because I was and still am very keen indeed to take part in a constructive dialogue in respect of list dynamics and how they can progress, positively for all concerned.

>Is netbehaviour (for example) notr a private artistic project?

Thank you for asking this question by the way :-)

I am not sure what you mean by a 'private artistic project'...

It certainly is a creative project, it certainly is not institutionally or commercially funded or supported in any way at all, although it would be a positive step, if more groups and official organizations were to participate in the list, in the way they do with more established lists - because of the possibilties it offers for unique developments and evolutionary progressions by artists and curators/organisers alike.

It is not a private project as the growing list membership has voting rights that they can exercise as and when they want in a faciltiy set up by the list members themselves. Some of the Furtherfield crew and other list members do administrate it, keep it functioning, offering their valuable free time to maintian it - but no one, individual or organization, orcompany has control over the lists direction, it is a collective projet. Netbehaviour is contributed to by many diverse individuals from all around the world, who are interested in exploring the potentialities of lists and trying new things out, and learning together - we are all exploring on Netbehaviour - cross fertilizing personal missions and manifestos, to see what happens if a list actually lives in accordance to its members, negotiated needs.

My own personal interest in Netbehaviour is that it enables a focus around ideas, and aspects of behaviour, not only academic influence. I feel that Netbehaviour makes conscious the processes observed in many other lists: the ability to follow organic patterns, actions and mannerisms, that sit along side the way that 'soft groups' survive strategically.

It's about focussing on the needs of the general 'list' users and seeing what comes out of that - it does not necessarily mean that a fine 'art' or academic accomplishment is guaranteed for a long duration of time. Occassionally the list stumbles, with flame wars and vendettas between certain individuals and irritating multiple spamming. I wrote about this though on an earlier post to Empyre and how it was dealt with, and how the negotiating process questioned my own dictating assumptions...

Overall, so far, the Netbeahviour list is a living online community that has its own issues just like any family, society, country or a club - the trick is not to expect a smooth running list but to explore the reality of its 'dysfunction' with a positive edge, for therin lies our authentic potentialities. We can all learn from each other on lists if we are open to it, even from flamers, for each act is a question that can be dealt with but not always in the way that we might want it, or expect.

with respect

marc garrett

Hello - post ISEA (for me).

I didn't post to empyre during ISEA because, because -- to be honest, I got lost in the personal exchanges that were going on. I think that the topic The LIST -- this is a topic based discussion list after all -- has been totally disregarded, and it leaves many people without a clue of how to participate.

Is there no other way to conduct personal exchanges, to find out the small things that don't involve the topic, without using up the list? You are able to see who is posting and write to them personally -- we all do that instead of using up list energy when there is something that we are not sure we understand. Then, if it seems important, you can summarize (but not post the personal exchange under any circumstances) your understanding.

This is simply my own opinion, of course, but the thread of this discussion has almost gone too far off the track. Is it because we (guests) have not guided the discussion during ISEA? Do the people making personal exchanges have no other means to talk to colleagues or friends about their other ideas? Do we need to compose a list of lists, where free conversation can take place on any topic, and where the list has some topic guidelines? Do we need to review net ettiquette once more?

There were some interesting points brought up at the panel during ISEA that could benefit from some more discussion, and interaction here. For example, I'd like to know more about artists projects that are LIST based. It is a fascinating idea to me -- and I don't know many of them at the moment. What better place to get the information and then go to them, and continue this discussion further. Is netbehaviour (for example) notr a private artistic project?

Now, I'm taking a big chance by posting this opinion, I feel awfully like I'm breaking into a personal phone conversation. AND, I'm not asking for brutal attacks on my uncomfortable reaction to the way the discussion is going, I simply find that ongoing personal exchanges get very boring to read and are exclusive.

I'm interested to pick up on an important topic to us all - the social space of the net...LISTS.

Thanks, Kathy

At 11:22 16/08/2004 -0700, you wrote:

Dear empyreans,

Here is a quote from Melinda's introduction to the month on networkomania:

> Facilitators and writers for lists with diverse intents and formats .....
> examine ethical issues and
> strategies in networking and list management to encourage an workable ratio
> of signal to noise - harnessing this ubiquitous communication medium.>

Melinda is traveling to ISEA and will join us soon. She is the lead
moderator for this month. But for those of us not at the conference, and
until she can rejoin us, it is important to keep discussion on empyre
focussed on substantive conceptual issues while remaining civil to one
another. This means that derogatory remarks regarding the character or
personal decisions of anyone either on this list or off, must not be allowed
to continue further than has occurred in this current exchange.

I have just logged on and read the recent suite of posts.

I beg all of you to please be attentive to the particular ethos of the
-empyrean- space, which is distinctive among lists for its attempt and
desire for a rather  stringent topical and rhetorical organization.

The issues being discussed relative to performance and political issues, publishing and the nature of community are, needless to say, far from trivial. As Melinda says here, these are ethical issues.

It's not whether to discuss these ethical issues, rather, how.

-empyreans- have been particularly successful so far in keeping personal
attack to nil or minimum presence.

Personal grievance is not part of the remit of -empyre- because its
moderation code tries to maintain a foundation, not in content, but in form,
or etiquette if you will.

Being human and too busy we will screw up from time to time but please bear
with us regarding this matter of courtesy.

Because of its formality, empyre desires to maintain a rather public and
neutral space; open and even inviting, to the participation of those who
are not at the 'center' of new media discourse. The intent on empyre is to
leave a space that is international in character and tightly focussed on
specific topics of international interest.

Critical discourse, of a kind that avoids vendettas while making incisive
observations, becomes substantive and useful to the broadest readership when
it focuses on the advancement of an impersonal or transpersonal concept.
Thus empyre becomes an open work (in the sense explored by Umberto Eco).

-empyre- will quickly lose the interest and attention of many of its
readers if leadership (including me) fails to maintain the diplomacy of this

Certainly the underlying issues, such as what constitutes 'publishing'
online and whether lists are publishing venues, are of great interest.

The quotation below from our opening page states this in a more negative
fashion, but, in general, please be aware of these guidelines especially
this month.

Thanks everyone,


The facilitators reserve the right to not publish
> posts that disregard these guidelines, or the current month's topics,
> disrespect the featured guests, or monopolize the forum either via individuals
> or group, and may unsubscribe anyone consistently doing so.


-- soundart performance videoinstallation multimedia painting theory

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