Re: [-empyre-] <no subject>

I take your comment and answer from that. I fully agree with you,
Crusades are also cruising, crossing borders, transgreding borders and
rules, making own paths,

" I persist for tell that crusade as subject of art being possible but not as
proper object of discussion in philosophic even meta philosophic field. May
be you want to suggest cruises (it is not an insulting joke, but an active
joke because at least designing a movement) instead of crusades, cruising
whatever the tragic subject?"

For me the Crusades were the triggering question, in the Middle East, where I happened to visit five times the last four six years, the Crusades are still "awake". If you click the "about" link in Crusades homepage,, you can read a text and a quote from a French general arriving to Damascus, in Syria, as a conqueror, at the beginning at of the century. At that time the spoils from the Ottoman empire were divided between England and France. The general asked to be taken to the tomb of the sultan Saladin, who expelled the Christians from the Middle East in the 13th century. The general spoke to the tomb and said "Saladin, nous sommes de retour" (Salading, we are back). For me is the end of the circle, the West and the Islam are still struggling for representations, for different views of the world, for different aprehensions of the reality, for different ways to pray to God and to perceive the reality. I feel myself very perturbed and ambivalent in front of these heritage and try to solve the ambivalency acting out, as a writer, as an agitator, as a witness. Ana

On 12/14/06, Aliette <> wrote:

On 14/12/06 10:28, "Ana Valdes" <> probably wrote:

> Yes, I understand completely the rational argument and the need to
> keep things apart, myh feeling, your feelings, our feelings, their
> feelings, but the problem is Art and Writing are about feelings and
> representation and identification and empathy and emotions.

I'm sorry but completely disagree with this definition of Arts and Writings at the moment it is a global definition but the noise of the world not the thought. We are coming from times where arts and politics coming mostly from the order of the power and yet now from the order of the social signs of the commodity and the loosing horizon of the human rights specially freedom after the politics century in western influence itself.

I do not think that Klein or Pollock, Artaud or Hölderlin were working to
tribute a representation. What came from another one but not from them. It
is exactly the  problematic question of artists discussing their works
instead of being silent to leave their work deliver their proper message
(that never an artist will be able to control after having made it, because
it is the proper life of the work to advent both with the public or the
collectors, if the work is successfully moving). That is the critical place
of art and of writers. They are responsible of what they make, but not of
what the other make with in (the question of the practicing freedom in art).

Since twenty years something has fast turn from the illusion of the sacred
life of human among the different species on earth into indifferent thing
among other things on earth. That is not a bad thing in itself but obviously
does not socially rule well can be inside can be outside of its proper
system of representation;-) The same of the class through the democratic
vision of extended neo liberalism.

Representation is exactly what supports a fractal reproduction of the same
into the largest landscape which does not appear the same. It is not the
real work of artists but for revealing it as criticism. (if you refer to the
demiurgic conception of Poet and of the Artists in antique Greece). What
happens outside of us can be the outside inside through the representation
is properly ideology (that is a fractal landscape of which Baudrillard and
Lyotard and much more other French thinkers have never stop to think about
for know what inside the Marxist system ‹ being the proper question of the
reproduction of the dialectic materialism itself in it). May be nowadays the
difference between Althusserian and Badiou. It is the proper radical
question : how escape out of the representation / reproduction.
Representation being contamination is very far from the conceptual process
but all the contrary what impeaches the renewing conceptualization.

I persist for tell that crusade as subject of art being possible but not as
proper object of discussion in philosophic even meta philosophic field. May
be you want to suggest cruises (it is not an insulting joke, but an active
joke because at least designing a movement) instead of crusades, cruising
whatever the tragic subject?

If we are able to be the people under the power available for such wars, it
is exactly because our freedom and knowledge of the rights have decrease in
the perception of otherness as an existential reality, not considering
ourselves as cognitive mass of mixed singularities but indifferent mass of
slavery to be exploited (the question of the west not being more that one of
the proletarian class, but the disappearance of the middle class that
proletarian have reached since modern till post modern times and which is
the former level of democratic performance in post-modernity ‹ I mean after
the second global war‹) : but it will be subjected or disappear, because it
is properly the last memorial class of politic consciousness that must
disappear for the subliminal realization of the unlimited generalization of
the increasing money on earth, at the cost of the middle of humanity having
to disappear as proper bodies needing food because there is not preventive
resources to tribute their survival, can be a part of western societies, can
be any people of the world). So the consideration of democracy being the
western model is not increasing but decreasing in itself. Crusades are from
the emergent societies, not from the decreasing societies. Whatever of God.

Do you know that western high salaries have indicating multiplication such
as 40 this year in America, 16 in UK, 11,5 in FR? While all other mode and
level of individual resources under the highest level increasing (not the
number of individuals but their proper resources at the cost of the other
individuals) staying from O to 1 (UK)?

But at last a following discussion from such a misunderstanding could drop
us far from the available thought of what it would like to examine, And
probably will head us into a collective performance of whipping, from moral
representation in the  ethical name. (that is not exactly the same, ethics
telling the bad collective behavior but relative, while moral telling which
is the good collective behavior to apply without relativity).

There is an emergent question from the post dialectic materialist
rationalism of such a system: the question of death which designs the sense
of the life whatever the society. It is the question of the matter itself
when symbolic has leave the collective pact: effect of the materialist
rationalism of commodity extending till the proper bodies as capital of
spare parts to be extracted by the banks of organs. That is properly the
ultimate point of the relationship of members of a society as internal
double mass. There is no more peace whatever the society would be peaceful
when one for safe his/her life is waiting that another one falls down to be
extracted, then killed instead of having die.

This is not a question of religion, it is the question of what is not
usefully active must disappear, but exploited till the last nail. And you
know may be, dear Ana, that artists and poets are the part of the evil from
the absence of utility... Tools and utensils are not the same -explained
Klossowski in "La monnaie vivante"..

If artists become socially useful as artists it is that they have left the
art territory, at this moment whatever they would follow with their another
part as artists, they become bare members of the society, and very often
expensively pay the cost of their engagement: precisely from the orders
gratifying their art works. Specially artists and writers active in the 60
and the beginning of the 70 have pay a high cost of their engagement into a
return of net career.

Nobody has impeachment of use the landscape of a war for create their works,
even from another virtual landscape but is is perfectly not representative
of the bare situation that is extracted. Bare life cannot be represented.
Yet being discussed here.

When artists implicate themselves in the bare situation it is not art it is
bare life at their proper cost. Not art. But whatever of the bare life art
is not representative as work. Art and Poetry are radically BARE WORKS or

The interpretation can be representation but not the work.

> emotions and images are today hostages and they are universally > manipulated by media, the market, the advertizing companies, the ones > "triggering" feelings using our images and words to achievde different > goals. > The other day, in Liepaja, Latvia, where Jan-Erik and me showed > Crusading films, we showed a film made by an Spanish-Maroccan > collective, Colectivo Sur. La Foret, El bosque, made by Alex Munoz and > Helena Maleno. They went to an illegal (not recognized by UN or for > some NGO or for the Red Cross) refugeecamp and lended the camera to > the people, who filmed themselves. They asked one only question during > the long film, who are you are from which country you are coming and > where do you want to go and what do you think Marocco and Spain and > the European Community should do to help you? > The camp was shattered in thousand pieces, the people, normally > sleeping in improvised tents or in the trees, were trying to collect > their pans and clothes, all broken and dispersed by the Maroccan > guards. > It was one of the most powerful and genuin films I have seen in years. > It had not any pretension to be an "author film", it was not either > and only a documentary. It transmitted so many unadulterated feelings > I, the viewer, felt their pain, their grief and their frustration and > become a participant, not merely a bystander. > Another film we saw and a powerful tool was Arnas Children, made by > Julian Mer-Khamis, the son of Arna Mer, a Jewish woman who got the > Alternative Nobelprize for her work with children and youth in the > refugee camp of Jenin,, >, > But the question is still: how genuin and unbiased are our work as > creators in a world where all the words and the images are being used > as tools in a neverending advertizing campaign? > Ana > > On 12/14/06, Cecilia Parsberg <> wrote: >> Hi >> >> when making my film on the West Bank last year (I went 9 times the >> lst years, long periods) , I felt so stupid many times - because I >> realized how little I understand and that I can never fully >> understand - and who am I to make a film about others! >> And I said to my Palestinian friends: I feel stupid! They replied: >> "Cecilia, you don't represent us, you understand a little, but not >> all, you are not our voice, you are making your film and your >> interpretation and represent you in this context." >> I felt very good being reminded that. >> And I need to remind myself over and over again. >> >> They said they like people who stay and try to understand everyday >> life, but have little confidence in news and media. Art gives time >> and space for the kind of work that is politics, but not serve the >> politics >> >> best >> cecilia >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------- >> Exhibition now: >> >> Cecilia Parsberg >> >> >> networks: >> >> >> >> address: >> Allhelgonagatan 7 >> 11858 Stockholm >> Sweden >> >> home T: +46 (0)8 328677 >> mobile: +46 (0)70 32 86819 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> empyre forum >> >> >> >

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