[-empyre-] of pain and others
sondheim at panix.com
Sun Oct 28 13:55:44 EST 2012
On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Jonathan Marshall wrote:
> Hi Alan,
> I'm still not sure here. For example, to use some other easily
> referenced points can we really describe ecstacy? even a moderate 'real'
> orgasm? then there is the often remarked failure of the mystics to
> convey the 'union with god', the breakdown of language - to some extent
> this might also be about the failure of represenation when there is
> no-person to do the representing, and others do not have a similar
> experience, to resonate.
No emotion can be perfectly expressed, but unutterable pain or death can't
be expressed at all it's different - it's why there are tests, as long as
one can answer them.
> What i would say is that maybe i've had experiences of sheer joy a
> couple of times in my late teens early twenties. The amount of art i
> have experienced, which can help recall those experiences, or sustain
> them is miniscule when compared to the amount of art which can sustain
> or induce the sense of depression, meaninglessness, pain, pointlessness,
> negation etc. (especially post mid 19th Century art)
Again, this is taste; I can name any number of artists who give me joy
from that period. There's no verification procedure here; even someone
like Rimbaud can be read as ecstatic or depressive.
> So my conclusion would be that it is far easier (or considered
> important) to 'do' art around pain (in our world anyway).
Bad sociology! First you're using your reactions to the work and then
making a sociological generalization from them. Good grief art can work in
any number of ways around any number of themes; I just don't want to name
names here, that's not relevant, and would only be my take on stuff.
> That it is not to say that it is easy to do art that maintains empathy
> or overcomes state barriers or exclusions etc (which is a different
> issue). That i think is very hard (and very worth attempting) and is why
> songs with the potential to raise pity and self questioning are roughly
> banned. There is perhaps no other defense - but the banning *can* add to
> the potency, because it may make us listen harder to find what led to
> the banning.
Confused - other than that Israeli song, I can't think of any that were
banned. Even pop stuff, listen to Morrissey or the old U2 - none of this
stuff was banned.
> unutterable joy. But that does not suppose a continuum, other than from
> the *representable* to the *unrepresentable*, to the *hintable*...
Confused what you're saying here, apologies -
> But quite frankly, how do i 'know' what anyone means, or is attempting
> to convey?
You don't which is why one take on language from AI is that it's the
"mutual orientation of cognitive domains" which doesn't mean they're
mappable or convey the same.
> each word, each gesture, may not only be social, but it is also
> profoundly individual. it has particular meanings that are unique, but
> it is not individual as it lives in interaction
Of course, language is both a commonality, consensus, and idiolect.
> Perhaps the more complex the statement, or the art, the more this is the
> case. And indeed the more 'real' the art, the more it seems like it
> stands on its own , being so rich in what it can provoke/say
Again, I don't understand your aesthetics; I don't know what "the more
'real' the art" means at all, what it means for art to stand on its own,
etc. etc.; to quote badly Foucault, art is a discursive formation.
> Ultimately i probably don't understand anyone, but at the same time if i
> work (and art and communication require empathetic work from the
> audience, even if it is only beforehand), i may gain an inkling.
Depends what you mean by "understand" - there's no "ultimately" but there
is consensus enough so that, if I visit you, as I did, and say something,
we can actually have a conversation.
> and that is true of anything not 'just' pain. Pain brings the
> incomprehension to the fore, makes it harder to ignore, but it is always
Argh, again pain is different, as is death. Think for a second,
incorrectly, of pain as "just this side of death" - maybe that will help.
> However, of course, if we (as a moral decision) may want to act towards
> the pain of others for alleviation or sympathy or coaction etc, then we
> may decide those in pain need/require (not the right words, but let
> communication fail) our attention and work more than those in 'harmless'
> joy.... but let us not think that joy is easy to express and may not
I agree with the first part, not the second. Even popularly "Laugh, and
you laugh with others; cry, and you cry alone." "Joy is contagious."
Mirror neurons! Empathy!
> Perhaps i don't even know what i'm attempting to say
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