[-empyre-] sex death love - on AGEING

Miha Colner miha.colner at gmail.com
Wed Oct 2 04:33:22 AEST 2019

Dear all,

thank you for contributions; they are diverse but the issue of ageing has
so many different angles that it diversity is inevitable;

what I meant with the battle between generations is that there are
inherently different positions, and the anger is inevitable on both sides;
the only difference is that anger is tolerated with kids and youngsters but
it is definitely not acceptable with elderly. The expectations that old
people should be content and reconciled with their lives and positions in
the society is another construct. Everybody has the right (and the reason)
to be angry.

But I can agree that it is not a normative state of old people to be on
powerful positions (of course, it depends how we define old age);
dismissing people as useless and obsolete is probably the most damaging
thing that can happen to a human being. Beside that loneliness is the other
issue that is very striking in relation to an old age. Inability to adapt
to new situation and new people, rejection of the environment, etc. are
painful, and it all often starts with (forced) retirement. As Simone de
Beauvoir writes, people after the magic line of sixty five years of age are
commonly pushed into poverty (as the pensions are much lower than salaries)
and the time which many think could be the time of enjoyment and
fulfillment becomes a time of struggle and loneliness. She blaims the
system, namely capitalism, for the alienation, lack of empathy and
rejection of old people from the societies.

Of course this is only one aspect (mostly responding to Alan) but there are
many more; and I am very happy to hear the ones I don't know much about.
Menopause and seuality in older age are difinitely issues I haven't came
across much and itis indeed very brave to address them. Almost nobody does;
it is a taboo - for people who experience it and for the people like me who
know little about it and feel uncomfortable asking about it.

So my interests in the topic are very diverse: for the show that I am
preparing I am interested in works of artists who reflect their old age
themselves in their works (old people about ageing) and artists who address
the issue from a position of observers. Diversity of perceptions and
positions are the key here.

all the best,


On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 at 17:17, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:

> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
> Is anybody familiar with German director Fassbinder's film *Fear Eats the
> Soul, *the love between a German woman in her sixties and a North African
> man in around his forties?
> Murat
> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 11:04 AM warkk <WarkK at newschool.edu> wrote:
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> thank you  Shu Lea for recalling Sandy’s legendary performance. It’s also
>> described in the book I’m writing about right now: Time is a thing a body
>> moves through by T. Fleischmann. The book is a lovely meditation on Felix
>> Gonzales Torres among other things.
>> It had not occurred to me that when I saw Sandy perform she would have
>> been about the age I am now. I don’t know why I  like the thought of that.
>> They say transition is a second puberty but I like to think puberty is a
>> transition also. So is menopause. Transition is just a thing our bodies do.
>> They mess with the times if the body.
>> I do feel like I am both 58 and 18 at the same time. My 18 year old self
>> is going out dancing at raves and doing drugs and making out with strangers
>> while my 58 year old self is doing her best to keep her safe.
>> My 18 year old self is making a lot of friends who are a little older and
>> wiser on her timeline. On the other timeline they all seem to be 30 years
>> old, where my 58 year old self marvels at how advanced they are compared to
>> when I (we) were 30. The kids are all right. They are oblivious to what
>> will hit them if the world endures long enough for them to be 58 and I’m
>> reluctant to tell them too much.
>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 9:23 AM Shu Lea Cheang <shulea at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Dear Annie
>>> Thank you.
>>> Very courageous for posting here on this particular topics and i also
>>> thank Miha, Ana, Murat, Alan, Ruth, Simon, Theresa and Sandy who share
>>> their very personal thoughts on this. I do want us to feel here at -empyre-
>>> soft skinned space, among our colleagues (contemporaries), we can bring
>>> these issues up. Being naked, vulnerable and brave. For a long time. i have
>>> not thought it is possible to bring my sex work (my side job as scifi porn
>>> filmmaker) or queer/gender issues into 'legitimate' media forum discussion.
>>> I am glad this september here at -empyre-, we make a step forward.
>>> Without getting into penetration, Sandy's orgasmic performance in which
>>> she relocates her G-spot to her palm, rubbing it (masturbate) to arrive at
>>> orgasm with public encouragement. Sandy was performing this act in pretty
>>> much all major media conferences in the 90s,to recall this act, Sandy must
>>> be in her late 50s at the time? She has virtually repositioned her orgasmic
>>> power.
>>> Sandy Stone on interaction, interface and Desire.
>>> https://duplox.wzb.eu/docs/panel/sandy.html
>>> best
>>> sl
>>> On 30.09.19 12:32, Annie Abrahams wrote:
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Hi all,
>>> Trying to look back at these few days I notice it is difficult to treat
>>> the subject of "sexuality and age" in public. I read some very touching
>>> stories on ageing (Simon, Ana), but we only sidewise touched on sexuality,
>>> on the kind (what kind?) that goes with old age.
>>> We only sidewise touched on sexuality, on the kind (what kind?) that
>>> goes with old age. But that is a construct (Miha). Thanks to Ruth for
>>> encouraging me, for pointing to how politic the subject is and to how
>>> body-chemistry permanently changes the way it feels to be alive, and in
>>> relation to other people, that it opens up whole new dimensions of relating
>>> and resonating with the world, whilst leaving behind others. From
>>> Murat's reaction I learned how awfully difficult it is to discuss the
>>> subject in public.
>>> I think I will go on researching, but I will try to create safer
>>> conditions. It feels necessary and I am not afraid to fail (nothing to
>>> loose :)). If so, I will contact some of you again. I will need diversity.
>>> If someone else on the list would be interested or can give me tips for
>>> a "how to" please write me a personal mail.
>>> Ageing goes with loss as Murat said.
>>> Socializing our houses and our ageing (Ana) won't be done for us, so yes
>>> we should start making kin, taking care (Sandy) early.
>>> It can also be an opportunity. It is an opportunity for resilience and
>>> change.
>>> Shu Lea thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to mutate my
>>> anger to an interesting exchange.
>>> Ps.
>>> I would love to see the exhibition Alan dreams of - Anger is a force
>>> ....
>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 10:29 AM Allucquere Rosanne Stone <
>>> sandy at sandystone.com> wrote:
>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>> I just returned from dinner with a robust, boisterous group of people
>>>> who live in cohousing.  They decided to follow Donna's injunction to "make
>>>> kin", and they're successful at it. People of many ages, many professions,
>>>> including the elderly and the differently abled.  They care for each other.
>>>> I helped build and help run a community radio station that brings
>>>> together people of many ages and many ability levels to keep alive our
>>>> motto "many voices, one station".  We care for each other.
>>>> Instead of looking outward at the horrors perpetrated by our society on
>>>> the old and sick and different and differently abled, we look inward and
>>>> build our own for our own.  It's extremely hard, it's dangerous, it's
>>>> possible to fail.  But if we don't make kin, if we don't take care of our
>>>> own, no one will.  To that, I dedicate a large portion of my life. Let
>>>> others point out how awful life can be for the elderly, and let others try
>>>> to understand what can be done and how to do it.  In the warping presence
>>>> of the destructive forces of capital, in the face of all of patriarchy's
>>>> evil, we'll simply do all we can to continue to make kin and to care for
>>>> each other.
>>>> That's all I have to say on the topic of aging.
>>>> Sandy
>>>> <https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=siglink&utm_campaign=reach>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> empyre forum
>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forumempyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.auhttp://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>> --
>> McKenzie Wark (she/her)
>> *Professor of Media and Culture*
>> 65 w11th st, NEW YORK, NY 10011
>> *Office:* room #456 *Cell: *646 369 7266 *Twitter: *@mckenziewark *Insta*:
>> @mckenziewark3000
>> _______________________________________________
>> empyre forum
>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu

Miha Colner
M: +38631354843
E: miha.colner at gmail.com
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