[-empyre-] Welcome to OCTOBER (t0ny's feminalist collaborations)

David Grubbs bluesea at dragcity.com
Mon Oct 7 23:10:16 AEDT 2019

Kathy, your story about your experiences of Tony and hypnosis . . . as
ever with Tony, I'm at one and the same time genuinely surprised (I
guess I never discussed the subject of hypnosis with Tony) and also
having another "of course!" moment -- of course Tony was experienced
in hypnosis . . .

One thread that I'd like to pull out of these conversations has to do
with a kind of on/off toggle into and out of performing.  I was
interested in hearing Paige talk about what changed once someone --
and it turned out that it was always Tony, hmm -- pressed the record
button, how that inflected a certain kind of play that was already in
progress.  Spending time with Tony sometimes I felt that the play was
continuous -- always "on" even if in something that we'd now recognize
as sleep mode -- with different modes of performance occurring, often
in hilariously discontinuous fashion.  That also makes me think of the
different ways of being in a multitude of situations, many of which as
referenced in these conversations responding to mores within academia.
I will say that the first time I ever saw Tony seem like his head was
going to explode was one afternoon in 1998 when we were driving around
Buffalo in an April snowstorm looking for materials for an impromptu
recording session, Tony perfectly sanguine driving in to-me harrowing
conditions but nearly losing it when given the slightest bit of
runaround by someone in charge of checking out equipment at the
university.  (I remember thinking that his blood pressure had gone up
when we set foot on campus.)



On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 11:59 PM Margaret Rhee <mrheeloy at gmail.com> wrote:
> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
> Hello Kathleen and everyone for your posts, and thoughtful responses and this conversation.
> While this week's play seemingly ends tomorrow, I hope we can continue the rich and heartening discussion on Tony's influence on practices, logics of capital, and living. So much of what was said is resonating, and I'm so appreciative to everyone for their perspectives, insights and convergences made. Thinking now of Kathleen’s work with wearable electronics of her "Urban Armor" series and the exciting playful ways the work plays around with the notion of fashion and machines. It reminds me of artist Maria de Los Angeles's work on wearable dresses of the undocumented, which we'll hear from in Week Four. It's exciting to rethink objects and the materiality of work that holds concepts.
> As someone who also plays across art, poetry, and scholarly practices, in response to Kathleen's question, much of the work on play really stems from a generative conversation with Renate on the forum and how what is really moving and resonant for me was Tony's movement and playfulness across form.
> I'm also thinking about what Kathy's insights onTony's desire to build artist community in Buffalo and the greatness of rust belt cities in WNY like Troy, and how being in spaces that are livable and offers a time for sustainable practices. How it also makes sense that the practice of being an artist isn't only about making, but the kind of living that we do. Perhaps this notion of home. I feel this connects so well to Paige's comments on the "virtues of being tinkers" yet, "I don't want to cede anything, nor did tony, to the logic of hierarchy when it comes to the power of what we do."
> I think this is a conundrum faced given now the fast sexiness of 'digital humanities' for example. While ten years ago, as a graduate students, I was actively discouraged by many advisors to pursue community based digital work (specifically my collaborative project in the San Francisco Jail on digital storytelling with incarcerated women of color). Now, I have colleagues talk about wanting to make digital projects simply because its "new," and I can't help but also understand the logics of academic capitalism being in place.
> I'm not sure how to distinguish except, I and others didn't necessarily create things because of academic capital, but we were interested in new things, and dismantling logics of hierarchy.
> We know how technology and new media work is never benign nor innocent. We can think of funding practices, patriarchy, and hierarchies and the importance of refusing institutional logics of commodification.
> How to? While we maintain the power of play and her interventions? More questions than answers perhaps, but I'm glad the forum has brought up questions around logics, hierarchies, and yes, hypnosis too.
> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 8:13 PM Kathleen McDermott <katmariemcdermott at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> Hello all,
>> So great to read all of your thoughts! Thank you Nina for sharing your work I enjoyed looking at it. And thank you Paige, David, and Kathy for sharing insights into yours and Tony’s practices.
>> I’ll continue on this question of play in creative practice because I find it super interesting. I do not think an element of playfulness in creative practice excludes rigor or structure. However I do think in frameworks centered on productivity, it is often perceived as less-than or as a poor use of time. Play is an enormous privilege, many of us never feel we should play or can play. (The issue of motherhood and time definitely comes up here). I attended a panel yesterday at the NY public library regarding comics as a medium for inclusion, (titled “welcome to the nerd palace!”) and one of the questions asked from the audience centered around how to convince parents that it was ok to let kids read comics, (was it like letting them eat candy?) A panelist who was also a librarian responded that she thought there were echoes of capitalism in how we view student reading lists— that even regarding children we fret that they should always be consuming media that is productive and has been sanctioned. And yet comics provide a space for so many children who feel othered... A digression but I guess I take heart in the idea that even if play isn’t explicitly productive (though I believe it very often is), it can be ok to engage in it.
>> But mostly I do see it as productive, as requiring rigor and as approaching the area of experimentation, in a way that is valid but not in a scientific method sense. Because different structures work for different people.
>> But I do very easily slide into doubt on this. I see the possible danger, in the Arts, where we are often having to convince the broader institution of our expertise and our rigor. And it can certainly be dangerous territory to question “expertise,” in a general climate that has become so anti-academic, anti-expert. So arguing for play can be a very tricky boundary to walk.
>> Would love to hear others’ thoughts on how and whether they attempt to balance rigor with play in practice. Margaret, does this come up in your work?
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:17 PM High, Kathy <highk at rpi.edu> wrote:
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Hello Paige and all,
>>> I thank you Paige for this entry - and all the entries which I have followed with great interest.
>>> But I must speak up here - as I feel like maybe I am a representative of the last generation of actual "posers" in academia akin to Tony Conrad. This ilk will not be able to continue after my generation. And - like my immigrant father who also posed and taught graduate business school students at Penn State while he only had a 6th grade education, and so many others I admire! - we have figured out a way to move through these systems that are now dominated by institutional risk aversion regulations and more!
>>> Of course, I have to admit that Tony was my advisor in graduate school at UB and we stayed in touch since my graduation in 1981. Tony wonderfully taught me how to teach, how to play and how to make art.
>>> I received a MA in Humanities (what is that?) from UBuffalo in 1981 - and we were told by the University of Buffalo that once they got their MFA program approval our degrees would be "turned into MFAs". Years later then the MFA came on board I wrote to the administration to request this change in my degree - but alas. I was told I would have to reregister, and take all kinds of courses to actually qualify for the MFA. So be it. No MFA for me. So, I have basically faked it through my career with a non-terminal degree all this time. And now - ironically, I advise PhD students!
>>> But that is not why I am writing.
>>> I wanted to post because of something Paige said about Tony and how SoS and other things "made Buffalo his home." I had a great conversation with Tony about 12+ years ago while he visited Troy after a talk he gave at RPI. He lamented the fact that so many of his fellow faculty members in his department were living in NYC and commuting to Buffalo to teach - leaving a hole in the actual Buffalo community which could have been thriving had they been in situ. He had tried to start community studios to encourage living communities, but to no avail. Tony really loved what these outskirts, somewhat ruined and fringe communities had to offer to us all - like Buffalo. An opportunity for freedom from financial burden (inexpensive rents, affordable food and schooling, etc.). Which also translated into time! And a place where communities can really come together to change opportunities - like with the aspirations of SoS. I have taken this to heart living and working now in another rust belt upstate city, Troy NY!
>>> In the 1980s, I worked with Tony and Tony Billoni, and Chris Hill, and others in a hypnotist club - which was amazing. Tony C. and I were both good hypnotists. And thus we started this "club" -  a kind of thing that rarely exists today. As a group we met and held experiments where we tried to hypnotize each other, and see what results we could produce - which is weird and scary because when you hypnotize someone you exert control over them. But I never felt threatened by Tony - like I did so by many other men in those times (and most of the men at UB!) - to Paige's point of Tony's feminist awareness. To his credit, I started working with Tony at UB in the graduate program, after pioneering video artist Steina Vasulka left and moved to Sante Fe. She had been the only woman teaching in the program. I was devastated when she left. But Tony became - somehow and very organically - my mentor and super shaped who I am today. That was a gift@!
>>> In fact, Tony was the only person who ever was able to hypnotize me! He only got my arm to suspend upward - but that was a big deal! He was truly a magician! Ha!
>>> In those moments we learned how to literally lean on each other and trust one another. And this was "community".
>>> On 10/3/19, 8:02 PM, "empyre-bounces at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au on behalf of Paige Sarlin" <empyre-bounces at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au on behalf of p.sarlin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>     ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>     "Grateful for structures that make conversations possible." MR
>>>     Thanks K, M, and D.
>>>     Building on the thread about conversation and its association
>>>     with/collapse into play, Studio of the Streets (SOS) seems like a
>>>     great project to think with. What became an early example of
>>>     relational and discursive "social practice"  actually began as the
>>>     documentation of a protest to demand resources and space for public
>>>     access television. As it was conceived by the members of The First
>>>     Amendment Network for Public Access (with Chris Hill, Barbara
>>>     Lattanzi, Julie Zando, Jody Lafond, Meg Knowles, and many others --
>>>     including TC and Brian Springer), SOS weekly shoots were an attempt to
>>>     encourage the people they encountered on the steps of City Hall to
>>>     make their own TV. Eventually that goal fell by the wayside and TC,
>>>     Cathy Steffan, and Ann Szyjika developed a careful choreography in
>>>     order to produce and amplify conversations with the people of Buffalo.
>>>     SOS's conversational/play was shaped by boundaries, struggles with
>>>     authority, and institutions: from time constraints (they filmed on
>>>     fridays and aired tuesdays) to the organizing efforts of hundreds of
>>>     people to demand public access .... but it was also enabled by tony's
>>>     employment as a professor at University at Buffalo. He’d been teaching
>>>     at UB for many years, but he used to say that SOS made Buffalo his
>>>     home.
>>>     I raise this because the notion of home that Margaret invoked is, for
>>>     me, synonymous with conversation, a space or site for dialogue and
>>>     discussion. That's what I need: interlocutors and structures for
>>>     engaging with them. Call it a network, connections, friendships,
>>>     relationships, "community" -- forms of association for conversation have to be
>>>     produced, reproduced, and maintained. Like many privileged folks, i've
>>>     been lucky to meet brilliant individuals and to carve networks out
>>>     within academic institutions, but it's when I've tried to build them
>>>     "outside of institutions" that's when those conversations-connections
>>>     require work and resources to feel like play.
>>>     From this perspective, i don't think tony would have recognized himself as a
>>>     "professional amateur". Rejecting the notion of professionalization at
>>>     every turn, he was a student of boundaries and disciplines -- if only
>>>     just to upend the conventions. He didn't have an MFA when he was hired
>>>     at UB, most artists didn't. But he set about to learn "the culture" --
>>>     having reading groups on post-structuralism and other academically
>>>     fashionable material. (He was also hired to teach video having worked
>>>     almost exclusively in 16mm). All power structures intrigued him. He
>>>     took institution building quite seriously but in the context of the
>>>     university, he was most committed to finding ways for his students to
>>>     cohere as a group. He'd do anything to facilitate that and to keep the
>>>     department limber and forward thinking in its offerings and hires. But
>>>     the job was, first and foremost, an income. A "home base" from which
>>>     to be a filmmaker, video artist, musician, writer, artist, and a
>>>     teacher (or "polymath" -- a term he never used to describe himself).
>>>     The current conditions of academia mean that artists are hired or
>>>     expected to satisfy the never-ending imperatives of
>>>     "interdisciplinarity."  Artists must write, theorize, perform,
>>>     produce, instruct, tutor, and criticize across media to be legible to our
>>>     administrations and hiring committees. This multi-modal status (with
>>>     all of its apparently boundary challenging playful potential) has
>>>     become a professional requirement.
>>>     I'm neck deep in this -- I have the degrees, check the boxes, and now
>>>     I teach in a department with a PhD in practice where we're in the
>>>     business of producing professionals in the mold of
>>>     trickster, multi-modal, institution-challenging mavericks. From where
>>>     I sit -- it's worrisome how well and easily "the celebration/power of
>>>     play" fits into the very logic or authority it has the capacity to
>>>     flout. I'm all for celebrating the virtues of being tinkerers and
>>>     undisciplined but never an amateur. I don't want to cede anything, nor
>>>     did tony, to the logic of
>>>     hierarchy when it comes to the power of what we do.
>>>     Paige Sarlin, Ph.D. (she/her)
>>>     Assistant Professor / Department of Media Study / University at Buffalo/SUNY
>>>     p.sarlin at buffalo.edu / paigesarlin.info
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     empyre forum
>>>     empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>     http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
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David Grubbs
Professor of Music
Performance and Interactive Media Arts (PIMA)
Brooklyn College and the Graduate Center, CUNY

Coming soon:
Anthony McCall & David Grubbs, Simultaneous Soloists (Pioneer Works Press)
The Underflow, The Underflow (Corbett vs. Dempsey)

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