[-empyre-] sex death love - on AGEING

Murat Nemet-Nejat muratnn at gmail.com
Mon Sep 30 01:55:04 AEST 2019

Dear Miha. teal,

You approach aging from a metaphysical, intellectual point of view.
Whereas, aging/dying is a series of losses. When you arrive at your last
loss, you die. This is interior, subjective, not analytical or
metaphysical, reality of death, whether you are a man or a woman, an animal
or human. The individual himself/herself, and others (the individual,
family, culture, social institutions, economic system, in that concentric
order) can either ease and compensate for that inexorable process or add to
its misery and speed it up. The final step is always the same.

If anyone is interested in how this process occurs, we can discuss it here.



On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 2:25 AM Miha Colner <miha.colner at gmail.com> wrote:

> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
> Dear Alan,
> thank you for your response; it is obvious that people of age are often
> the subject of caricaturing and laughter; the things which are expected
> from elderly such as being wise and calm are probably even more
> frustrating; as Simone de Beauvoir noted in her book 'Coming of Age' that
> the society finds anger of old people unacceptable while the anger and
> violence of children and youth, for instance, is tolerated. Therefore the
> anger that you mention is rarely (publicly) expressed.
> I guess people, when they are young and/or middle aged, don't think much
> about the old age; this period seems very distant and alien. I am 41 and I
> can only observe the situation of elderly from a side but I guess one
> doesn't have to be of age to think about old age. However, in these cases
> the perspectives are probably very different.
> I am glad to hear that there is anger expressed for being discarded as
> useless, or as you expressed yourself that older people have "nothing to
> offer" anymore. This is probably based on the idea of inter-generational
> struggle.
> There is an inevitable struggle going on between different generations.
> Both sides have it right: younger generations want their place under the
> sun and tehy have to take it by themselves - to gain recognition and claim
> the positions of power; older generations have to claim they are not
> useless yet. Positions of power are always taken from previous/older
> generations and youngsters are always sure that they have to wait to long
> to get there and people of age often think they are dismissed and excluded
> too early. These are fundamentaly opposite positions which are inevitably
> intimate and embeded in one's own position.
> But it is very rare to find an equilibrium or let's call it
> inter-generational cooperation where older people share experiences  and
> younger are being gradually prepared to take their roles. Let's take
> leading positions as an example. In the place where I live (Slovenia) there
> is a habit that leading roles in institutions (academic, bureaucratic, art,
> culture) can last endlessly - it is not strange to have the same director
> of a museum or a professor at the academy for thirty and more years (over
> that time one actually becomes seemingly irreplaceable) and over that time
> directors/professors can create a complete mechanism of power which extends
> to control of their heirs. So we have a joke about the principle where
> professors or directors always hire dummer assistant who would never
> challenge them and that this cycle is broken only when, after few rounds,
> the assistant becomes so retarded that, when he/she takes over the power,
> doesn't notice that the next assistant is actually wiser... and then the
> cycle brokes and starts anew.
> But as I said the anger of younger generation that wants to claim power is
> considered exceptable while anger of older people is not. I agree that a
> big part of that stigma comes from mass media and popular culture. It seems
> there is a huge burden imposed to people of age: coping with the notion of
> uselessness, decreasing power and strength and expectation that they will
> always be an old wise men, content, understanding and in constant "state of
> zen".
> Anger is a good perspective; thank you!
> Miha
> On Sun, 29 Sep 2019 at 05:03, Ruth Catlow <ruthcatlow at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> Dear Murat,
>> I take your point. And its a good call to invite me to re-read Alan's
>> post, which I think resonates with my own (in the description of
>> grandparent as a constraining assigned role).
>> I was careless. I value the insights into systemic oppression offered by
>> intersectional feminist approaches when thinking about this. AND I should
>> have made clear that I understand patriarchy (asserted through religion,
>> law and family) to be equally oppressive and restrictive to people
>> regardless of their sex.
>> Thanks
>> Ruth
>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 7:15 PM Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Hi Ruth and other participants,
>>> Why is the issue and prejudices around aging are focused around women
>>> with the added implication that these prejudices are the work of men ("the
>>> machinery of patriarch")? As if men do not get old and suffer social
>>> prejudices despite the fact that Alan Sondheim gave a good list of them. As
>>> far as I can see, no one resp[onded to him. I thinkwe should try to get
>>> outside our narrow identity frameworks if we want any meaningful discussios
>>> nor sharing of experiences.
>>> Ciao,
>>> Murat
>>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 11:20 AM Ruth Catlow <ruthcatlow at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>> I'd like to thank you all, and especially Annie, for your writing in
>>>> this thread.
>>>> I remember in 2010 when Annie wrote about menopause and sexuality. I
>>>> was struck by her anger that no-one ever told her/us that it might be that
>>>> way.
>>>> The anger alerted me to something very important.
>>>> It hadn't occurred to me then that my aging body-chemistry could
>>>> permanently change the way it feels to be alive, and in relation to other
>>>> people...which it does.
>>>> And that if it could, that it might open up whole new dimensions of
>>>> relating and resonating with the world, whilst leaving behind others. It
>>>> does.
>>>> It also hadn't really dawned on me how much of my place in the world
>>>> was made out of something like sexuality, and therefore narrated and shaped
>>>> by a mess of political social construction.
>>>> This is a very difficult topic to be open about on a personal
>>>> level...another layer of the machinery of patriarchy that determines
>>>> women's identity and role in relation to the institution of the family
>>>> (rehearsing an old Christian line here I know) - of women's best destiny
>>>> lying along the continuum of innocent girl, through sexual creature and
>>>> nurturing mother, to kind grandmother, to scary crone - with sexuality
>>>> confined to sexual creature and mother segment. To step off this line is
>>>> still to invite blame, shame and harm in so many many places.
>>>> And as with many feminist questions, much of the delicate work of
>>>> confronting and rewriting the given narrative to match a living experience
>>>> that breaks oppressive and unjust constraints, has to be done first, in
>>>> private, to avoid exposing and betraying the personal trust of our closest
>>>> friends and lovers. Our shared experiences cannot automatically be used as
>>>> subject for public examination.
>>>> So I read this thread as a wonderful use of the extended zone of trust
>>>> created by this 'soft skinned space'. I am deeply appreciative of the
>>>> courage and directness of this conversation.
>>>> <3<3<3<3
>>>> Ruth
>>>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 1:01 PM Annie Abrahams <bram.org at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>> Hi Sandy,
>>>>> I'm sorry if I gave that impression, but your remarks were so full of
>>>>> enthusiasm and positivity that I needed another take on it. I think
>>>>> you understand that.
>>>>> Your remark triggered something in me that I tried to analyze and
>>>>> write into existence.
>>>>> That is not easy.
>>>>> I am still thinking about starting a short research that tries to talk
>>>>> about sex and ageing. Take a month to see and read all I can, to do some
>>>>> interviews and record what I find on a website. Trying to scetch a very
>>>>> divers map of the "territory". I feel an urge, but is it enough .... is it
>>>>> important?
>>>>> Would others be interested? and how should I approach such a thing to
>>>>> let it be important to others?
>>>>> Cheering back
>>>>> Annie
>>>>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 5:28 AM Allucquere Rosanne Stone <
>>>>> allucquere.stone at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Annie,
>>>>>> I'm not sure if you were claiming that my remarks, insofar as they
>>>>>> touched on sex, confirmed "mainstream" ideas.  Perhaps what I wrote could
>>>>>> have been read that way, but only if you don't know me very well. :-)
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Sandy
>>>>>> Annie Abrahams wrote on 9/27/19 4:18 AM:
>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> When McKenzie asked about ageing and Sandy answered I felt unease. I
>>>>>> thought my own experience not relevant for the context and so I didn't
>>>>>> react. Also I needed some distance to check my feelings and to see if this
>>>>>> wasn't an only personal issue. So I wrote Shu Lea and talked with friends.
>>>>>> Thanks Shu Lea for inviting me to try to express myself.
>>>>>> My reaction is not about “us” older people – we find our ways - it is
>>>>>> for the younger ones (as the 18 year old McKenzie) so they will have a more
>>>>>> diverse image of what might come. Sexuality in old age and ageing in
>>>>>> general are subjects that are not treated seriously. Ageing can be hard and
>>>>>> we should be openly talking about it in detail. Ageing is also beautiful,
>>>>>> yes, but not only ….
>>>>>> We all have our own stories, our own way of dealing, enjoying and
>>>>>> mourning about it.
>>>>>> After rereading Sandy's reaction to McKenzie I saw she was more
>>>>>> subtile than I first thought, so why was I angry? Probably because hers was
>>>>>> the only reaction to McKenzie's question and it was confirming “main
>>>>>> stream” ideas I see too often in popular media.
>>>>>> “Sex after 60 is still good - it's impossibility is a myth - there
>>>>>> are simple solutions for vaginal dryness and erection and ejaculation
>>>>>> problems - but you need to take care, to keep it going, to learn how to
>>>>>> keep it up ….. “.
>>>>>> Why should I do that? Why?
>>>>>> For me it feels as if I would have to conform to an unwritten rule.
>>>>>> Sex is about penetration …..
>>>>>> Is it?
>>>>>> Not for me, at least not anymore. There is something “fake” about
>>>>>> suggesting it is. We need diversity in the discourse. There should be more
>>>>>> stories …
>>>>>> Life didn't go on as before and media shouldn't pretend it should /
>>>>>> could. It doesn't! And we shouldn't punish ourselves with “false” ideas.
>>>>>> For me life became easier - I am now 65. Getting older means going to
>>>>>> the important things, not being bothered anymore, but still, I am
>>>>>> confronted almost daily with thoughts and things not possible anymore. I
>>>>>> doubt what is normal and what not, I resist, I give way. I fear the
>>>>>> loneliness coming - I choose not to have children.
>>>>>> Sexuality for me is affection, tenderness and bodily sensations and
>>>>>> that can still be terrific (great and terrifying at the same time), but it
>>>>>> is completely different from the hormone influenced frenzy, athletic
>>>>>> activity it was before. So why call it still sex?
>>>>>> Something of what I feel might be visible in a 3 min video
>>>>>> performance I did with Martina Ruhsam in 2015. "*besides, Dear Body*"
>>>>>> was a Turbulence commission. You can see the archive
>>>>>> https://vimeo.com/131117890. I wrote about the performance
>>>>>> afterwards:
>>>>>> “*It felt as if we created a continuum in difference and made a
>>>>>> statement that said „don’t worry, this is life“. I wanted it to be a gift.
>>>>>> There was a big shock when I looked at the recording of the performance,
>>>>>> when I looked at my naked body. I see this body every day in a mirror, but
>>>>>> the video image is not the same as a mirror image – there was no head, no
>>>>>> action going on, just the body to look at. It took time to overcome my
>>>>>> personal aversion to my own ageing body, to accept the breathing image, to
>>>>>> accept its reality, to let the video live as an independent object showing
>>>>>> ageing, a tender connexion, and a crack.*”
>>>>>> https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/besides-some-reflections-on-the-first-three-performances/
>>>>>> Ageing is related to "death" another "taboo" subject - too intimate
>>>>>> to talk about? In “*besides, moved by some thing.*” also a
>>>>>> turbulence commissions with Martina Ruhsam we talked about death and dying.
>>>>>> https://vimeo.com/131117872 (49 min)
>>>>>> "*When facing death or illness all the accumulated knowledge
>>>>>> surrounding these issues is displaced by experiences that can hardly be
>>>>>> shared. Can liminal experiences be communicated verbally?*"
>>>>>> After this we had several private online conversation sessions with 6
>>>>>> women on the subject. Then we stopped ... technology was not easy for all,
>>>>>> connexion sometimes bad and life brought us elsewhere. For some time I have
>>>>>> been thinking about starting a "death café" in Montpellier (
>>>>>> https://deathcafe.com ) but ....
>>>>>> Unfinished, ongoing...
>>>>>> merci thanks dank
>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:46 AM Shu Lea Cheang <shulea at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> dear empyre-ers
>>>>>>> The September month on -empyre-  doesnt seem to be ending, so many
>>>>>>> threads to follow up...
>>>>>>> Let me recall some moments -
>>>>>>> McKenzie Wark ever so inncocently – 11/09/2019 post
>>>>>>> *So Sandy: can you tell me a it about ageing? I just turned 58 and
>>>>>>> am already a middle aged woman...*
>>>>>>> Allucquere Rosanne Stone ever so cheerfully – 12/09/2019 post
>>>>>>> *I can only tell you about aging from a personal perspective.  So
>>>>>>> ok, I’m, what, 82, 83, something?  I write, code, make stuff, and raise
>>>>>>> hell, active in several professional fields, sex is terrific…if anything,
>>>>>>> it gets better with time.  This isn’t a tell-all, so I’ll leave it at
>>>>>>> that.  I don’t hike, climb, or snowboard as much as I did, but I’m
>>>>>>> beginning to think that’s psychological.  Anyway, if it’s words of
>>>>>>> encouragement you want, you can have all I’ve got, and I’ve got plenty.
>>>>>>> I’m fully aware that my view is not a universal one, and I can’t speak for
>>>>>>> trans* folk who find aging hard.  But from this admittedly limited
>>>>>>> perspective, in this particular embodiment, I intend to keep on
>>>>>>> adventuring, theorizing, and making love with the throttle pushed up to
>>>>>>> 110% until my body simply explodes.  I invite you to join me.*
>>>>>>> Annie Abrahams asked to bring back  these topics - sex death love
>>>>>>> and ageing
>>>>>>> ·  *"**Annie Abrahams: The belief that, after menopause, sexual
>>>>>>> intercourse goes on as before is mistaken. At least it didn’t for me. This
>>>>>>> made me really angry for some time, as nobody had warned me! It felt very
>>>>>>> lonely. I think that the sexual life of post-menopausal women is still very
>>>>>>> much a taboo subject that people shun away from.*"
>>>>>>> http://digicult.it/digimag/issue-058/annie-abrahams-allergic-to-utopias/
>>>>>>> (2010)
>>>>>>> For these last few days of September as leaves yet to fall off  the
>>>>>>> branches, I like to introduce Annie Abrahams, also bring in Miha
>>>>>>> Colner, the curator who’s been preparing an exhibition *On Ageing
>>>>>>> at *MGLC – International Centre of Graphic Arts (Ljublijan,
>>>>>>> Slovania).
>>>>>>> Annie Abrahams is a Dutch artist living in France. She has a M2 in
>>>>>>> biology from the University of Utrecht and a MA2 from the Academy of Fine
>>>>>>> Arts of Arnhem. In her work she questions the possibilities and limits of
>>>>>>> communication, specifically investigating its modes under networked
>>>>>>> conditions. Using video and performance as well as the internet, she
>>>>>>> develops what she calls an aesthetics of attention and trust, in which
>>>>>>> human behaviour is the main material. She is known worldwide for her netart
>>>>>>> and is an internationally regarded pioneer of networked performance art and
>>>>>>> collective writing.
>>>>>>> Full cv bio (336 Ko)
>>>>>>> https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_cvbio_eng.pdf
>>>>>>> 2.3 Mo 20 pages with images - book
>>>>>>> https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_images.pdf
>>>>>>> Miha Colner(1978) is an art historian who works as a curator at MGLC
>>>>>>> - International Centre of Graphic Arts, Ljubljana. He is also active as a
>>>>>>> publicist, specialised in photography, printmaking, artists’ moving image
>>>>>>> and various forms of (new) media art. Since 2005 he has been a contributor
>>>>>>> of newspapers, magazines, specialist publications, and his personal blog,
>>>>>>> as well as part-time lecturer. He lives and works in Ljubljana, Slovenia.
>>>>>>> http://mihacolner.com
>>>>>>> Let's see how this run, maybe try to smoke Sandy out of cave and get
>>>>>>> warkk to bring in some techno beats!
>>>>>>> sl
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>> --
>>>> Co-founder & Artistic director of Furtherfield & DECAL Decentralised
>>>> Arts Lab
>>>> +44 (0) 77370 02879
>>>> *Furtherfield *disrupts and democratises art and technology through exhibitions,
>>>> labs & debate, for deep exploration, open tools & free thinking.
>>>> furtherfield.org <http://www.furtherfield.org/>
>>>> *DECAL* Decentralised Arts Lab is an arts, blockchain & web 3.0
>>>> technologies research hub
>>>> for fairer, more dynamic & connected cultural ecologies & economies
>>>> now.
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>>>> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
>>>> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
>>>> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
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>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> empyre forum
>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>> --
>> Co-founder & Artistic director of Furtherfield & DECAL Decentralised Arts
>> Lab
>> +44 (0) 77370 02879
>> *Furtherfield *disrupts and democratises art and technology through exhibitions,
>> labs & debate, for deep exploration, open tools & free thinking.
>> furtherfield.org <http://www.furtherfield.org/>
>> *DECAL* Decentralised Arts Lab is an arts, blockchain & web 3.0
>> technologies research hub
>> for fairer, more dynamic & connected cultural ecologies & economies now.
>> decal.is <http://www.decal.is>
>> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
>> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
>> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
>> Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
>> _______________________________________________
>> empyre forum
>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
> --
> Miha Colner
> M: +38631354843
> E: miha.colner at gmail.com
> mihacolner.com
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
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