<p dir="ltr">But all narratives are fiction religion is a narrative too and it's fiction as well a very powerful tool. And science play the role as well. That's because many call science the new religion :)<br>
Language is a fiction too :)<br>
Ana</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">Den 20 nov 2016 11:53 skrev "Murat Nemet-Nejat" <<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com">muratnn@gmail.com</a>>:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr">What I mean is that science has built its own narrative of truth by which it prevails which can also be a fiction.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Ana Valdés <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:agora158@gmail.com" target="_blank">agora158@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br>
Sorry I don't understand your question.<br>
<br>
Skickat från min iPad<br>
<div class="m_-6200104271766748390HOEnZb"><div class="m_-6200104271766748390h5"><br>
> 19 nov. 2016 kl. 21:53 skrev Ana Valdés <<a href="mailto:agora158@gmail.com" target="_blank">agora158@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
><br>
> I am an old fan of science fiction and I am still in love with masters as Philip K Dick Sturgeon and Ursula Le Guin. They wrote about dystopian realities not far from ours. Sturgeon wrote about a gestalt a kind of complex unity composed by kids with extra sensorial abilities I don't want to call it "powers" to avoid any link to Marvels hyped heroes.<br>
> And Ursula Le Guin, an anarchist, challenged the whole idea of an antrhopomorfic God.<br>
> Science needs a narrative to prevail.<br>
> Ana<br>
><br>
> Skickat från min iPad<br>
><br>
>> 19 nov. 2016 kl. 21:34 skrev Murat Nemet-Nejat <<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
>><br>
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br>
>> "... "we're mostly unaware of how deeply our lives depend upon<br>
>> the functioning of complex, expert systems..." -- we're the fish in<br>
>> their ocean (McLuhan) (unless they break down). ..."<br>
>><br>
>> That's why a digital art critiquing its own medium must involve, one<br>
>> way or another, a break down of its system. It must have an ethos of<br>
>> inefficiency or failure at its center-- not an expression of power,<br>
>> but weakness-- maybe an elusive glitch that the reader may experience<br>
>> subliminally or a software that decrease communication rather than<br>
>> improving it, etc., etc.<br>
>><br>
>> "...I am not sure whether the "digital" can speak its truth (at least in a<br>
>> language we understand), but Shaviro suggests one way we humans might<br>
>> begin to see its truth/reality for ourselves - by creating art where<br>
>> the "material and technological factors are explicitly foregrounded...."<br>
>><br>
>> I do not agree with this part of the argument. Most often, this kind<br>
>> of work is celebratory, of "look what I'm doing, ma" kind (I hope<br>
>> people will jump up and show the error of my way). It suggests that<br>
>> the technology is revealing something about us when in actually the<br>
>> work is mimicking, promoting the reality the technology is imposing.<br>
>><br>
>> I think all great science fiction is dystopian. And I am a great fan<br>
>> and believer in it as a modern relevant form of expression. My<br>
>> previous poem The Spiritual Life of Replicants is actually a science<br>
>> fiction work. At this moment, Peter Valente's reference to Melies's<br>
>> silent masterpiece A Voyage to the Moon comes to my mind. On first go,<br>
>> it seems to be a science fiction work that is celebrating the future.<br>
>> So far so good... But the film is so full of domestic details and the<br>
>> space ship the "space men" are traveling on is so ramshackle that one<br>
>> gradually realizes that the people are transporting their bourgeois,<br>
>> middle class life to the moon, that the movie is a magical, exquisite<br>
>> piece of satire.<br>
>><br>
>> Ciao,<br>
>> Murat<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Jerome Sala <<a href="mailto:jeromesala502@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeromesala502@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br>
>>> Murat, your question, as to whether "the computer (and the web and its<br>
>>> consequence) has the ability to expose and criticize the condition it<br>
>>> has created...whether the digital can be 'revealer of is own truth',<br>
>>> brought to mind a book I've been reading - Discognition, by Steven<br>
>>> Shaviro. One of the points Shaviro argues is that, in our everyday<br>
>>> experience, "we're mostly unaware of how deeply our lives depend upon<br>
>>> the functioning of complex, expert systems..." -- we're the fish in<br>
>>> their ocean (McLuhan) (unless they break down). Another aspect we<br>
>>> don't grasp, as your question implies, is that such technological<br>
>>> entities, rather then just being there, inert until we manipulate<br>
>>> them, have an agency of their own: "...if we engineer them, in various<br>
>>> ways, they 'engineer' us as well, nudging us to adapt to their<br>
>>> demands."<br>
>>><br>
>>> I am not sure whether the "digital" can speak its truth (at least in a<br>
>>> language we understand), but Shaviro suggests one way we humans might<br>
>>> begin to see its truth/reality for ourselves - by creating art where<br>
>>> the "material and technological factors are explicitly foregrounded."<br>
>>> His book is about science fiction stories that do this. Perhaps this<br>
>>> is also what I had in mind by the poetic project I wrote about, which<br>
>>> foregrounds digital/corporate cliches that inform us, through the<br>
>>> jargon we speak. In any case, Shaviro's book may offer a clue as to<br>
>>> the great popularity of the SF genre. Often, in allegorical ways, it<br>
>>> acknowledges the agency of the technological (remember the Borg?), and<br>
>>> enables people to start talking about the power of its influence.<br>
>>><br>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br>
>>>> Hi Jerome, by your question on the nature of "knowing" in poetry, I<br>
>>>> think you touched a critical point, an issue running throughout the<br>
>>>> discussions and presentations this month.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Knowledge that poetic experience contains or "reveals" does have<br>
>>>> multiple facets. On the one hand, the knowledge (in some incarnations,<br>
>>>> message/propaganda) may be transactional and implicitly points or<br>
>>>> leads to action. Some great classics are of that sort, for instance,<br>
>>>> Lucretius's On Nature or Virgil's Eclogues, Shakespeare's Henry V and<br>
>>>> also, in some sense, though a book of "revelation," The Bible, etc.<br>
>>>> The election of Trump last week drove the discussion to the<br>
>>>> transactional side of poetry (art), and rightly so. That is what all<br>
>>>> the writing invited to be sent to Dispatches for the anthology all<br>
>>>> about. So are the post cards Craig refers to, as conceptual acts.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> There is another kind of knowledge that poetry "reveals," not<br>
>>>> necessarily leading to action-- of course, the distinction is somewhat<br>
>>>> artificial since a poem or work of art contains both simultaneously<br>
>>>> each time creating a different balance. If one extreme side of this<br>
>>>> spectrum is propaganda (all nations/cultures/languages have propaganda<br>
>>>> masterpieces), the other extreme is gnosis-- a knowledge not quite<br>
>>>> contained in the practicalities of a language, but in its peripheries,<br>
>>>> the often unacknowledged overtones that emanate from words, space,<br>
>>>> etc. (embedded in poesies).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> It is in terms of this same dilemma (the nature of poetic knowledge)<br>
>>>> that Heidegger is discussing technology in his essay. On the one hand<br>
>>>> it is defined as "enframing" nature to exploit it (in terms that<br>
>>>> Francis Bacon asserts as "knowledge is power"). On the other hand, it<br>
>>>> returns technology to its roots as techne, a making that reveals the<br>
>>>> truth. Their relationship is dialectical.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I have been on Empyre list for about two years, following it on and<br>
>>>> off with interest because it presents to me a digital culture that is<br>
>>>> of great interest to me; but in which I am not directly involved as a<br>
>>>> practitioner. What struck me most is that, save for important<br>
>>>> exceptions such as Alan Sondheim and Isak Berbic (and I am sure there<br>
>>>> are others), the focus of the participants was on what the internet or<br>
>>>> the computer can do for them, on the computer as a new potent enabler,<br>
>>>> the computer as artistic or political power. As far as I can see,<br>
>>>> little attention was given to it as a revealer of "truth," the<br>
>>>> knowledge of human condition and psyche in a digital technological<br>
>>>> age.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> In my view, poetry (art) is doomed to die without containing within<br>
>>>> itself both these knowledge, though the melange may be different in<br>
>>>> each.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The underlying focus for me this month has been, that is why I<br>
>>>> accepted the invitation to moderate, to explore whether the computer<br>
>>>> (and the web as its consequence) has the ability to expose and<br>
>>>> criticize the condition it has created, in other words, whether the<br>
>>>> digital can be the "revealer of its own truth." I can not say I have<br>
>>>> been that successful up to now.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The primary text for this month is the fifteen minute video clip I<br>
>>>> referred to in my introductory statement at the beginning of the month<br>
>>>> in which the film maker Jean Renoir discusses the effect of technology<br>
>>>> on art (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Mtd6GE_PI" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch<wbr>?v=q7Mtd6GE_PI</a> ). He says that<br>
>>>> art becomes boring to the extent that that the art maker is in total<br>
>>>> control of his or her own materials and techniques. He refers to a<br>
>>>> group of 11th century French tapestries (the Bayeux, the first known<br>
>>>> ones) where the threads were coarsely spun, the colors were primitive<br>
>>>> and of a narrow range; but they contained great beauty, revealing the<br>
>>>> strife of their making.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> That is why "Overcoming Technique"--the first two words of my<br>
>>>> introductory title-- is crucial, whether one finally agrees with<br>
>>>> Renoir or not. In our daily lives with family and children and<br>
>>>> teaching and grading papers, etc., I hope some of us find time to<br>
>>>> re-focus on these issues the remaining days of this month. As artists,<br>
>>>> the issues are important for all of us.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Ciao,<br>
>>>> Murat<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Craig Saper <<a href="mailto:csaper@umbc.edu" target="_blank">csaper@umbc.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br>
>>>>> Relevant to the discussion and the “dispatches” this event might speak to the issue of, what Jerome Sala called in a recent "poetry is a particular way of knowing the mind” …<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> "Post Card Avalanche"<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Join in and send a postcard directly to Trump! Here are the basic instructions to participate:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ** IMPORTANT - Don't mail your card until NOV. 26th **<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> In the message section, write this simple message: NOT BANNON!<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Throw a post card Avalanche party. Make postcards.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Address it as follows:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Donald Trump<br>
>>>>> c/o The Trump Organization<br>
>>>>> 725 Fifth Avenue<br>
>>>>> New York, NY 10022<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Affix a stamp - you can use a 35 cent postcard stamp, or a normal letter stamp.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Take a picture of your postcard that you can share on social media using the hashtag #stopbannon<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Drop it in the mail! We are aiming to get these mailed between Saturday, Nov 26th and Monday, Nov. 28th to create a concentrated avalanche of postcards.”<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>>>> empyre forum<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au" target="_blank">empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.ed<wbr>u.au</a><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://empyre.library.cornell.edu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://empyre.library.cornell.<wbr>edu</a><br>
>>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>>> empyre forum<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au" target="_blank">empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.ed<wbr>u.au</a><br>
>>>> <a href="http://empyre.library.cornell.edu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://empyre.library.cornell.<wbr>edu</a><br>
>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>> empyre forum<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au" target="_blank">empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.ed<wbr>u.au</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://empyre.library.cornell.edu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://empyre.library.cornell.<wbr>edu</a><br>
>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>> empyre forum<br>
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