<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Bruce, thank your for your thoughtful responses. They do clarify where our ideas converge and where they are very different.<br><br>"<span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">I put it
in terms of the reader's (or readers') experience. Because 'the text at the
center' can imply something different from 'the reader reading the text'. For
instance, it's gotten somewhat fashionable for writers to proclaim their lack
of interest in the reader's experience or even the existence of readers — at
times, the apparent intention is to create texts that are 'impressive', for
anyone hearing it or seeing it (or hearing about it or buying/collecting it) to
elevate the status of the author...."<br><br></font></span></div><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">I very much agree with you, except for one proviso.<br><br></font></span></div><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">What the reader sees in my work or whether he or she responds to it is very important to me. I hope to write open ended works that may move in multiple directions. I am very interested in what direction the reader takes it or how he or she is affected by it, if any way at all.<br><br></font></span></div><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">Where I differ from you is I believe there is no misreading of a text. Particularly if documented, every reading of a text, every translation (which basically is a reading of that text) becomes part of its history, the penumbra of associations around it.<br><br><br>"</font></span><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">Sure, even the reveries (or the wild associations
or confusions or mishearings) that get 'built' around the text reading it
becomes part of it — but I'd say the 'it' is the reader experience; not sure if
those constructions can be said to be an actual part of the text..."<br><br></font></span></div><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">I don't think those readings or reveries can be easily separated from the text since one can not assume there exists an absolute reading of it. How can we tell which readings belong to the text and which don't?<br><br><br>"</font></span><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">Let me know if your essay on photography is
something others could link to.... To hone in on how the watcher dialogues with what is 'in front of the
lens', still emphasizes the representational/realist aspects of the art. This
brought to mind a fascinating article in the new issue of Louis Armand's
Prague-based journal, VLAK"<br><br></font></span></div><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">The Peripheral Space of Photography essay is not on line. It is published by Green Integer Press and needs to be purchased through them. If you wish, I can send you a PDF copy of the essay.<br><br></font></span></div><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"><font face="georgia, serif">Reading the essay, you will see that I don't treat photography as a representational medium at all, but to the contrary. For reason I explain in detail the essay, photography is a very disruptive, subversive medium that undercuts official "representations."<br><br><br>"... </font></span><font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1">(a huge issue #5) on the way film animation
confounds the camera/indexical/realist tendencies of film theory, by
emphasizing the individual celluloid frame. Adrian Martin's "Game with DVD"
is the piece. He suggests that "contemporary cinema in the digital age
tends ever more towards the surface manipulation of a graphic image on a
computer screen" —citing Thomas Elsaesser & Daniel Frampton, the
latter grounding his "account of cinema on the basis of the constitutive <u>artifice</u>
of the medium — the idea that everything can be created and manipulated within
an image-bank, rather than (or subsequent to having been) 'captured' by the
camera"<br><br></span></font></div><font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1">This is a very ambiguous passage, and I am not sure whether you are for the "surface manipulation of a graphic image" described or against it. My guess is that you support and admire it.<br><br></span></font></div><font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1">As you may have guessed from a recent previous post of mine where I discuss "color" and the continuous use of wide screen lens effects in commercial digital cinema, I am very much adainst it. The digital technology increases the "power" of the maker exponentially. As a result, it creates monotony. I expressed the same idea succinctly earlier in the month quoting from my catalogue essay on the black and white drawings of the Russian artist Olga Chernysheva:<br></span></font><font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1">
</span></font><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:baskerville">
Olga's Weak Art</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:times"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:baskerville">iPhone6 destroyed photography,
giving the photographer absolute power over its subject. At the click of a
finger, every milli-inch of one's solipsistic reality is mastered,
replicating or giving it an intensity of codified, algorithmic hue—of a violet
panoptican twilight zone. The weak power of black and white images—
rebelling. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">"<font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1">Again, not sure about this. Poets' thoughts are
usually claimed to be 'in motion' in a text, foregrounding the (sensual?) process
by which they get articulated or 'projected' [as in 'Projective Verse'], rather
than things that are 'fixed' (what you're calling a "predicated
idea"). Otherwise, they get criticized for being dogmatic, overly
intellectual, etc. But I'm still wanting the exchange to tilt away from the
author's thoughts, whether predicated or in process — to open up a wider arena
for the reader & for the disruptions or near-infinite horizons that
language implicates..."</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br><font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif">I mean something much more specific with "tissue of thought" or "poetry of motion" which have very little to do with projective verse or "the poet's [individual] thoughts." The idea originally was developed by me in relation to modern Turkish poetry and the poetics I call Eda. "Tissue of thought" has to do with the agglutinative nature of Turkish syntax. As a result, sound/music in that poetry (in Eda) does not derive from the physical sound of word;, but from the movement among them them. I discuss agglutination and its relation to Eda in detail in multiple essays, all of which are in <i>Eda: Anthology of Contemporary Turkish Poetry</i>. Agglutination is an elusive subject for one who does not speak the language. One needs to read the anthology. I had extensive discussions with Jerome Rothenber who has read the book about it.</font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif"><font face="georgia, serif">Because English totally lacks agglutination, w</font>hen I apply the poetics of Eda to American poetry, space replaces agglutination. One can understand what I mean, by reading my poem The Spiritual Life of Replicants and the essay "A Few Thoughts On Fragments" at the end of it.</font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif">Thank you for the exchange. I hope my responses are helpful.</font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif">Ciao,</font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif">Murat </font><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"></span></font><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:baskerville"></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:times"></span></p>
<font face="georgia, serif"><span class="gmail-m_4479243744049241203gmail-s1"> </span></font></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Bruce Andrews <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andrews@fordham.edu" target="_blank">andrews@fordham.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr">I hope somebody can help Macon Reed with this!</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Macon Reed <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:swapmeetproject@gmail.com" target="_blank">swapmeetproject@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr">Are my emails getting through? How do I unsubscribe?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:04 PM, Bruce Andrews <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andrews@fordham.edu" target="_blank">andrews@fordham.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria;color:rgb(35,35,35)">Craig, thanks for this.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria;color:rgb(35,35,35)">Really feeing that life on the web is recreating some of the
'distance' features of the scattered poets' life in the 70s: where you didn't
have to choose between a local scene (with its shared & often narrow aesthetic
assumptions, groupthink, life style-centeredness — often fondly recalled by
insiders as 'community' & 'warmth') & isolation; now, if you already
have a sense of who & what you're interested in, you can find a network out
there to tap into — whether mail or, now, email & listserves & blog
comments, etc. I remember being invited down to New Orleans to read by Camille
Martin, who was corresponding with a clutch of (mostly women) avantish poets
around the country & abroad, but was frustrated by a (mostly male) & less
avantish local scene [dominated by something similar to the Poetry Project's
mix of New American Poetry, a generation or so younger than the pioneers in the
Don Allen anthology]; she started a small non-profit literary society that
could apply for grants to bring poets in from out of town, more reminiscent of
the work of the people she was corresponding with. Again, the issue of relying
on an 'at hand' already constituted local scene or community, vs. reaching out
to a farflung network of (usually) strangers. [Some of this is probably
affected (or I could say, infected) by the dynamics of college-based Creative
Writing Workshops & the tendency for graduates to stay close to where they
graduated & trying to create a smaller but maybe even more narrowly focussed
scene or community.]<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria;color:rgb(35,35,35)">On the 3 editors you mention: I didn't get much sense of a
close-knittedness between Williams, Higgins & Rothenberg, but the first 2
had presses & I was very impressed with what they were publishing (&
gratified that they responded very positively to work that I sent along to
them: both Jonathan & Dick expressed a similar thought — that they might
like to consider doing a small book of mine, but that I hadn't built up enough
of a reputation [in the magazine world] to allow for the sort of name
recognition that'd keep the book from just sitting in boxes. I was sending them
work at the very start of my efforts to track down magazines that'd be
interested in what I was doing. [Jonathan Williams, who I only met years later
— true for the other 2 as well — was also a completely captivating &
charming letter writer, so that encouraged me to up my game in response].
Rothenberg, as I said, was doing a magazine of ethnopoetics (<i>Alcheringa</i>, with the recently deceased
& dearly missed Dennis Tedlock) that I sent work to; because he was pretty
much only doing translations there, he put me in touch with Ron Silliman — who
had just started <i>Tottel's</i> &
turned out to be nearly exactly on my poetic wavelength, which began 45 years
(!) years of close contact & collaboration; again, Ron & I didn't meet
for 6 or 7 years.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria;color:rgb(35,35,35)">I never saw Bern Porter's magazine, but had seen his books a few
years after I started writing: I was in
school in Cambridge, Mass. & made a few trips to NYC where you could find
such things in the early 70s — as was true of perhaps the most radical poetry
(etc.) journal of the time, <i>0-9 </i>[which
James Hoff put out a wonderful collected edition of — they had just stopped
publishing when I got around to sending them work. But re Bern P.: I was asked
by Michael Wiater to guest edit an issue of his magazine, <i>Toothpick, Lisbon & the Orcas Islands</i> — quite a title — & I
wrote to dozens of people in 1973, none of whom I'd ever met, assembling their
addresses by asking editors [Richard Kostelanetz, at the time, was a virtual
Rolodex of contact information] & then writing them, saying I'd like to see
an extremely large amount of material which I'd make decisions on very quickly
& send the rest back. Bern Porter sent me a BOX of about 300 separate pages/pieces
that I selected a couple from. Wonderful generosity of spirit was close to a
norm in those days, again all in the mail. As for Gertrude Stein, I was lucky
enough to have access to the Johns Hopkins library (while I was getting a
Masters degree), which had the multi-volume Yale edition including her early
& most radical work, within a year after I started writing, in 1969, so the
Something Else Press attention was a welcome treat. [I'd probably say that a
consensus among my peer 'language-centered writers' of the 70s/80s, Stein was
the key writer of the 20th century — something that's not a consensus in any
other group of poets]<i><span></span></i></span></p>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Craig Saper <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:csaper@umbc.edu" target="_blank">csaper@umbc.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Bruce<div><br></div><div>You wrote, "<font face="Times-Roman">most of the so-called 'Language Poets' only knew each other through the mail, so one key was getting mailing addresses for people: which led to an interesting focus on magazine editors or publishers. … like Jonathan Williams, Dick Higgins, Jerry Rothenberg …”</font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman"><br></font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman">Can you say more about this poetry-of-publishing with at least these three key figures?</font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman">Also, … </font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman">What role did Bern Porter’s <i>Berkeley </i>magazine play — or had it folded by the time the East Bay poetry scene was flourishing?</font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman">Were you introduced to Gertrude Stein or any of the European avant-garde through Something Else Press? Or, was Higgins picking-up on the interests of a group of poets in deciding to publish?</font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman">Was there ever a synergy among these publishers? Did they talk about their role in the networked and poetry scene?</font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman">Did Jonathan Williams’ <i>Jargon </i>grow from, or encourage, the assembling of poets and artists spread geographically around the US in a loose network? </font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman"><br></font></div><div><font face="Times-Roman">Obviously — much more to ask — thanks … </font></div><div><br></div><div>Craig</div><div><font face="Times-Roman"><br></font><div><div>On Nov 26, 2016, at 11:14 PM, Bruce Andrews <<a href="mailto:andrews@fordham.edu" target="_blank">andrews@fordham.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867Apple-interchange-newline"><div>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<div dir="ltr">Murat & all,<div><br></div><div>some 'first responders' [more to come, but let's start somewhere]:</div><div><u>you said </u></div><div>"I agree with you about the ups and down of the Project. We all heard our share of boring stuff there. I did doze off occasionally but the place always seemed to come through. A lot of poets, artists came from different parts of the States and the world and <span id="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-m_6154447505803877940gmail-:2ju.6">learned</span> from and collaborated with each other."</div><div><br></div><div><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1">[As much as I appreciated the Poetry Project as a
place to get to hear & meet my peers & poets I'd only known on the
page, what you're calling 'ups and downs' probably are more reflective of
changing aesthetics — or, possibly these days, what identity group commitments
are being reflected. And a lot of that put some distance in my relationship to
its central pushes.<span></span></span></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1">One thing relevant, I think, to talking about 'the
digital' [which is our topic & I'm as guilty as anyone of straying...] is
how poets decide what to present in a live, 'poetry-reading' situation. This
has certainly led a bunch of folks to put on sophisticated, elaborate
multi-media performances, often with off-putting tech troubles — to incorporate
digital formats, audio-visuals, sometimes the kitchen sink, into their
(usually) half-hour presentations. [In recent years, I've heard many —
especially younger — poets talk about how boring a straight, unadorned reading
is, compared with the additions of singing, video, photo slides, live musicians
or soundtracks: very possibly as we
shift into the 21st century digital 'screen' world]. For me, moving to NYC forty years ago [coming
from grad school in Massachusetts, where there were basically no readings up my
alley — oh, I remember one fabulous exception:
Bob Grenier reading with Larry Eigner — & my having given only one
or two public readings of my own work], meant figuring out <i><u>what</u></i> work that I'd written would work best in that situation
(having for the previous half dozen years only evaluated & quibbled over
& sorted my work based on reading it on the page): so, checking out audience reactions to
various kinds of writing & seeing what tended to get enthusiastically
responded to [parallel? musicians, moving from bedroom to the stage, from
recording to live occasion]. This is still a keen interest of mine when it
comes to making music/sound for dance performances — seeing, in other people's
dance/music collaborations, what seems to work or not. Anyhow, not only did I
start to figure out what poetry of mine might function well in a live
environment, it started (& continues) to affect the sort of writing I'm
likely to do — I'm much more prone to foreground the <u>sound</u> of the
language & the sonic tone of the rhetoric & address than I was in the
early 1970s; also, I got much more interested in not only discursive/social
materials to 'deploy' in the writing, but also to move away from an intense
focus on individual words & word clusters, to allow for more elaborate
phrasing & 'speakable' material — something that also tended to allow for a
more politicized/socially-revved up kind of work, but still with my usual
fascination with disjunctive/disruptive/abnorma<wbr>l language].<i><u> </u></i><span></span></span></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><u>you also said</u>:</p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1">"What the Project has been doing is what the Web is doing now. I have had long term collaborations with artists over the years whom I have never met. That is the huge positive of the digital world."<br></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1">[Like I said, my aesthetic preoccupations were
shared in the '70s by a raft of poets, the ones in my baby-boomer age group
being the most accessible — & here I'm talking ye olde postal delivery:<span></span></span></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1">most of the so-called 'Language Poets' only knew
each other through the mail, so one key was getting mailing addresses for
people: which led to an interesting focus on magazine editors or publishers. Starting
out as a poet at the beginning of the '70s, with pretty definite notions of
what was what, that meant not having to rely on the dominant notion of what was
happening in whatever local 'scene' was in my area. Luckily. Because I could
get their addresses, it led me to correspondence with editors like Jonathan
Williams, Dick Higgins, Jerry Rothenberg (Jerry was key: he put me in touch
with Ron Silliman, in 1971, which jumpstarted what was the first extended
correspondance of our 'language centered writing' world). (This didn't really change
until later in the 1970s, when a small handful of poets of similar aesthetics
began to cohere in NY & in the Bay Area.) <span></span></span></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1"><span> </span>[And that 'non-localized'
or 'un-scene' situation was what Charles (Bernstein) & I always had in mind
when we started, in NYC in 1977-78, to plan out a journal dealing with poetics,
that wouldn't be local/limited in that way — L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E.] <span></span></span></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1">The Web, as you helpfully note, is the current
rendition of just this exciting possibility — & again, it's not so
dependent on whatever local 'scene' (or, possibly more fraught, local 'creative
writing workshop' value system) is agreeing on or championing or excluding. So,
especially as a place for collaboration, it has real utopian possibilities. And
when it comes to writers with very primitive tech skills [& this has been
true with all my ventures into sound making], it allows for collaborations that
can bring folks like me into conversation with simpatico people far distant
spatially (& thus, not just having to rely on whatever is 'close at hand'
in the neighborhood).<span></span></span></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1">But I'm still wondering about what type of work it
overvalues or undervalues.</span></p><p class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-p1"><span class="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-s1">And I'm still wondering about issues of access, recognition, publicity, career, canon-formation, etc. </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:calibri"> </span></p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">[didn't get to this]: </div><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div>"<span style="font-family:cambria">We did want to focus attention on language itself as the medium, but I'm not
ready to embrace some of your characterization:
words & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize
them in other ways beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for
us, the author's personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric
expectations). We tended to want the readers' experience at the center — which
cuts against some of this binary of yours about the sensual, movement-based vs.
logical aspects of language"<br><br></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria">Bruce, when you say "</span><span style="font-family:cambria">We tended to want the readers' experience at the center," are you saying anything different than saying "I want the text at the center," the reader reading the text? The question interests me because in my essay The Peripheral Space of Photography, I assert that what is important in a photograph is not the photographer's focus (framing), but what escapes that framing. The real <span id="m_3797388126830737923m_-1293107197857799551m_8901515978121480137m_-6934126490189174867gmail-m_6154447505803877940gmail-:2ju.7">dialogue</span> occurs between the watcher of the photograph and what is in front of the lens (human or a landscape, etc.). If, as I think you are to saying, it is the reader (and not purely the text), then even the "reveries" the reader builds around the text reading it become part of it. Is that not so?<br><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:cambria">"Logical" was an unfortunate choice of words, on my part. I am more interested in the distinction between predicated idea (therefore fixed) and thought as process (therefore movement). One can have thought and/in movement (that's what Eda is). In that way, thought is sensual.<br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:cambria"><br>"</span><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">So if there's an "exchange"
it's a mutual bending (which might be way too mutually disruptive to warrant
being called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more like the relationship
between a 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by the way, doesn't "the
dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]? <br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Yes, mutually bending and disruptive, not a synthesis. That's what a true, transforming translation does, bends, alters both languages, discovers potentialities in them. Walter Benjamin does see a synthesis in the process when he writes that in a translation "A" does not move to "B" but both move to a third place "C</span> ," which he calls "ideal language." Some people believe Benjamin was being a "poet" (poet in the pejorative sense) here. "Ideal language" is a mystical fantasy. I am not one of them. I believe it is part of the core of his very original concept of translation.<br></span><br><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">"... doesn't "the
dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?"<br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Not necessarily. I believe in an art or poetry of continuous dialectic. The Talmud, where the interpretations of a holy passage are never resolved and remain always multiple, is such a text.<br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">To be continued (inviting others to join).<br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Ciao,<br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Murat<br></span></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">
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