<div dir="ltr"><div>I will when I am back from Asia where I am now on January 10, 2017.<br><br></div>Murat<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Bruce Andrews <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andrews@fordham.edu" target="_blank">andrews@fordham.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr">Signing off as well, thanks to Murat & Sally & Christopher & responders<div>Posted a final piece of poetry yesterday; drop me a line to stay in touch.</div><div>Bruce</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Sally Silvers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:silversdance@gmail.com" target="_blank">silversdance@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr">Ok, signing off on our week of empyre at 11:30 pm. <div>Thanks Murat for inviting me and thanks to all for the exchanges.</div><div><br></div><div>Sally</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Sally,<br><br>"... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in creating
'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for instance,
the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'. It made me
wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
planet disasters."<br><br></div>Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images (or languages) in the web with the reality behind them.<br><br></div>"Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same danger.<br><br><br>"... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)...."<br><br></div>That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film seems to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.<br><br></div>Ciao,<br></div>Murat<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:silversdance@gmail.com" target="_blank">silversdance@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr">Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar & reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract visuals. I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would go if I saw it live. (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one). <div><br></div><div>Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the graphic design artist, Dirk Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no longer legible. I also think of type designer & surfer, David Carson (<i>The End of Type</i>) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose abstractions are also built from words. For me when the words become pure abstract visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the words and have to care about the meaning. Maybe that is the difference between visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in which I find I want to discover something more social). Not sure.<div><br></div><div>I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre. It always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of the expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional instrument. Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound is the same as playing it on your own computer? Audience will go to hear live acoustic or plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for that. But when it's live musicians 'playing' their laptops, they want something visual to go along with it and thus a genre was born. <div><br></div><div>Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic situation of live music. I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time? </div><div><br></div><div> I just saw a dance performance with animated word/letter visuals by Kay Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor. Letters turned into words and words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and with slow changes. (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided) I didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the design, but the critics complained about it. I was reminded of Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense) and what the political implications are for those 2 approaches. Which one gives more freedom for the viewer? I guess Brecht would say the former but so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self. I remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).</div><div><br></div><div>Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing? Is it like volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the Foucaultian sense?</div></div></div><div><br></div><div>Sally</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:silversdance@gmail.com" target="_blank">silversdance@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and Chris sent. I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual Reality. I discovered that most of the universities that currently have departments devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as their social science potential. Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'. It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or planet disasters. Just like photographs can shock at first but then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses. Could it make it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide disasters are brought into our living room?<div><br></div><div>That's an aside, but I'm going to explore the possibilities of a movement residency with one of these departments. Can you imagine feeling like you are dancing with Fred Astaire, or in the movie, The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly). Or being in one of my dances? Apparently it's really easy to get motion sickness from VR so I'm curious about advancements on that front too. </div><span class="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Sally</div></font></span></div><div class="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570HOEnZb"><div class="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sally Silvers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:silversdance@gmail.com" target="_blank">silversdance@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Thanks, Craig, Happy to have a link to explore & connect with. I'm aware that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest. Something to overcome.<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:csaper@umbc.edu" target="_blank">csaper@umbc.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Sally</div><div><br></div><div>You wrote: “<font face="Times-Roman">… not yet a way to transform the most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking for, but not finding] </font>magical animated movies [related to the] felt body”</div><div><br></div><div>Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [ <a href="https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/" target="_blank">https://labanforanimators.wo<wbr>rdpress.com/leslie-bishko/</a> ] … work that uses Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”</div><div><br></div><div>Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier generation of experimental animators — especially Sky David?</div><div><br></div><div>The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is probably stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want the “documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use dancers to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to say — it is too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical essay into “dance-poems”</div><div><br></div><div>Craig</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers <<a href="mailto:silversdance@gmail.com" target="_blank">silversdance@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365Apple-interchange-newline"><div>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<div dir="ltr">Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths. But... hope everyone who celebrated had a great one.<div><br></div><div>Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and music projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a dance piece (right after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns to make the connection between nuns who were the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god and celibacy in order to gain access to education & to avoid forced pregnancy and motherhood — & the cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based dualities. </div><div><br></div><div>I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that Chris mentions as being so influential for him as well.</div><div> </div><div><a href="http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays" target="_blank">http://www.sallysilversdance.c<wbr>om/essays</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>In my dance (<i>Strike Me Lighting</i>) the first half was devoted to nuns and the 2nd half to cyborgs. I remember it was much easier to set in motion nuns than it was cyborgs. All the kneeling, contemplating, in-fighting, and undercover sex, so to speak, had more oomph than bodies with mechanical parts. The stiff robot move gets old fast. I ended up having to use a lot of photographs from books on cyborgs and spatializing the moves with things like star constellation floor patterns. </div><div><br></div><div>I find this to be true online as well. The body may be the last thing to be made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated form. Unless you think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I don't as they mostly seem like a translation of the body into something to sell music or glamorize some other product. Of course there are some exceptions to this as when the form of video and the form of dance/movement make a new concept -- when the language of each is not diminished. But most of the dance on film or via computer that I've seen seems like documentation or romanticized body angles. </div><div><br></div><div>Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live. (well maybe toddlers & animals get a pass). There is not yet a way to transform the most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video action.There is clumsy software that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly works with given movement combinations and vocabulary and allows you to recombine or select parts of the body, but it's not that easy to use to make something interesting for the computer itself; it's mostly a tool for rehearsal. </div><div><br></div><div>When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.</div><div><br></div><div>I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and digital art could be without it seeming gimmicky.</div><div><br></div><div>I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered electronically by dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting light/sensor points on the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very pretty), but so far I have not seen or heard of anything that would allow actual interaction or that makes chance or algorithms very available or interesting. I'm waiting for virtual reality to at least make it more real and felt for the viewer because 3-d has been somewhat of a bust. I have hopes for all these things but as of yet, nothing is as appealing to me as actually working on the live body. The computer is a luddite when it comes to dance/choreography.</div><div><br></div><div>When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up — mostly for managing the business side of a dance school! </div><div><br></div><div>Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies, but I still remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that registers gravity I'm waiting though; I'm eager for more knowledge on the possibilities of digital dance, in the way so many possibilities have been organized for digital poetry/language and digital music/sound.</div><div><br></div><div>Sally Silvers</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Chris, first, happy Thanksgiving to you and to all the others, at least the people living in the United States. Also thank you for your thoughtful answers.<br><br></div>Yes, for a short moment at least, the idea of making Empyre like a 1990's listserv was intentional, ideas coming from different directions, the excitement of not knowing where to turn next, etc. Those lists were meandering, argumentative, even sometimes hostile; but very productive. My purpose has been to project a sense of what we miss, what the web has become.<br><br>"... <span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)">I
was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating ways full of
contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a technologist, I
might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely did), though not
anymore..."<br><br></span>The contradiction (in a positive sense) I am referring to is not in your involvement in technology as a poet. After all, all of us as artists or poets use technology. in some way or another, be it a pencil or a computer. Rather, I am referring to, as I see it, an interesting contradiction (or tension) in your ideals/impulses. On the one hand, reading your <i>Prehistoric Digital Poetry</i>. I sensed a great interest in developing the capabilities of the computer progressively to create a poetry <u>unique to the medium</u> from word to image to movement to sound, and their combination --finally creating a poetic form which is both absorbing and ephemeral and can be read practically in endless ways depending on the choices the "reader" makes. In that synthesis, the digital poem resembles very much a computer game where words/letters are one element. Towards the end of the book, I remember asking myself what differentiates that digital poem from a game (not a play). I don't think I found a satisfactory answer in the book.<br><br></div><div>It is basically that contradiction I am referring to. Perhaps, since the writing of that book, you have found an answer and, therefore, see no contradiction. A sense of play has always been part of poetry, but is a game the same thing?<br></div><div><br></div><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those
that make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple
levels (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS &
software standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave)<br><br></span>Here I think we differ. Failure for me is a residue that remains in the poem after it is "finished." It is integral to the kind of poetry or poetics I write. Failure or success of communication, obtaining or failing to obtain rights are different. I know for you the ephemeral quality of internet sites or changing computer software are major issues. They are what make digital poetry (or any digital art) temporary, subject to time. Perhaps that is the failure that haunts digital works. I don't know. You tell me.<br><br>"...<span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">working with software/design/code/&c I always try
to have a general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do
happen on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly..."<br><br></span>If I understand correctly, the basic creative part of a digital work occurs in the programming of the software where the visionary or poetic impulse comes into play. If the original idea changes, the program has to be altered "on the fly"; or, I assume, sometimes the idea is bent by the exigencies of the program. If so, how does the idea of perfection come into play? In what sense is the code always perfect? How do you know?<br><br>"... <span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">there are ways to
organize expression & project material without being bogged down by any
constraints imparted code’s “perfection”. These tools are there to help us do what we
want..."<br><br></span>☺so the code is perfect and imperfect (or perfect with loop holes). I like that.<br><br>"... <span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">the coding allows the
sound-image-text to be rendered improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an
instrument, or speak, and have the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger
onscreen or audible events...."</span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)"><br><br></span>How do you determine the triggered on screen or audible events are random? Do you mean it feels random to the viewer/listener? <br><br>"<span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">... Plus, programs like javascript enable
impromptu, interactive database stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot
but project a sense of spontaneity and uniqueness...</span>"<br><br></span>We are I think touching a very crucial issue. "A sense of spontaneity and uniqueness" is an effect, basically a rhetorical trope. It can be premeditated, created through hard labor or through a code. "Improvisation" is an act. Something is either improvised or not. For instance, in his performances, Taylor is improvising, not creating a sense of it. Doesn't the difference matter?<br><br>"... <span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)">he
idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human & machine, made
(makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that uses digital media
non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. ...."<br><br></span>Chris, here we completely agree with each other. My poem <i>The Spiritual Life of Replicants</i> is precisely such a work. In Blade Runner --the film on which the poem is built (by the way, Blade Runner is the last Hollywood film that uses no digital special effects)-- the ultimate perfect code that no technology can break or contravene is mortality, to which even the cyborgs are subject. <br><br></div>Chris, thank you again for your thoughtful responses. <br><br></div>To be continued...<br><br></div>Murat<br><div><div><div><div><br><br></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Funkhouser, Christopher T. <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:christopher.t.funkhouser@njit.edu" target="_blank">christopher.t.funkhouser@njit<wbr>.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Murat,</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)">I
couldn’t delve into anything on Thanksgiving, & hope everyone had a blessed
day.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)">Now,
let’s see… this discussion reminds me of being on listservs in the 90s: lots to
think about, hard to keep up with everything, & difficult to elaborate as
much as one would like, or could in a face-to-face situation.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)">I
was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating ways full of
contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a technologist, I
might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely did), though not
anymore.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)"><br></span></i></p><i>
</i><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif">But how often starting a work of art do we no where we are
going (at least the kind of work I assume interests you and me)? We evolve,
basically try to discover the work. In that way, intention is not a useful
concept for me. To me failure has to do with gaps in a work, loose or
unexplained parts though the work is presented as complete. In that way,
failure is related more to a lack of total answer.</span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">Discovering the work is a good way to describe
what usually happens, but working with software/design/code/&c I always try
to have a general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do
happen on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly. If I don’t
set up some sort of general intention, though (as in a yoga class), I’d likely
have problems! Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those
that make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple
levels (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS &
software standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave))</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif">What is interesting in what you do is that, while you
"accept" the absolute perfection of the code, a lot of the artists
that interest you and you get deeply involved with, including your own
projects, are open ended, improvisational, "evanescent" so to speak,
such as Cecil Tayloror the wonderful piece of music "Wedge" you
linked us to in your post.</span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">I do try to keep an open perspective on
things, & working with programming/design software there are ways to
organize expression & project material without being bogged down by any
constraints imparted code’s “perfection”. These tools are there to help us do what we
want, & there are ways to use them that allow invention & expansion
rather than confine.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif">In what relation do you see the perfection of the digital
code (its "unforgiving" divine reality :) ) and your improvisational
aesthetics? I know in in your book you say that the poetry created digitally is
essentially ephemeral, and the artist must acknowledge it. </span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">I definitely accept ephemerality as a given,
& expect most digital works—if not cared for/maintained with some
dedication—will become unusable somewhere down the line (has already happened, to me & others--a lot), which in many
cases is really unfortunate. I see it as part of the conditions of postmodern poetry. David Antin's skywriting piece disappeared even more quickly! </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">fwiw, the thing about the work I’m doing now (for
the past 5 years or so), with sound and image, is that the coding allows the
sound-image-text to be rendered improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an
instrument, or speak, and have the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger
onscreen or audible events. Once I discovered how to make this happen, making
improvised digital poems became possible. Plus, programs like javascript enable
impromptu, interactive database stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot
but project a sense of spontaneity and uniqueness—they seem improvised (esp. if
the user/viewer is allowed to input content). &, btw, I did end up posting some of the new work I've done, mapping voice to instrumentation, a couple of days ago at <a href="https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/page-33-infiltration" target="_blank">https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/<wbr>page-33-infiltration</a> (another approach, where instrument drives animation in performance is up at <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PkkqOzCf4" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=t9PkkqOzCf4</a> or <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si30Iajz4Zs" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=si30Iajz4Zs</a> (a collab with Amy & Sophia Sobers, whose projections do not appear unfortunately)</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif"><br>
<br>
"I was thinking about glitch after my post yesterday, but even in
something that is glitch (in any form), the code functions properly. usually
these works are aberrations imposed by composer, hardware, or software. but it
is the surface that contains something unexpected/distorted. the code is <i>able
</i>to do what it is instructed/informed to do. glitch is a great cyborgian
form, whether intentionally created, or not.."</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif">To me, Chris, the above passage reminds me of Medieval
(Christian) discourse on God and the existence of evil-- <span><img alt="☺" width="48" height="48"></span><span> </span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,112,192)">OK! But the stakes are not so elevated. I was just rambling on,
probably ineffectively, a certain topic. As far as making stuff goes, I never
think of myself or anyone else as taking on the role of god, though I do like
the highlighted passage of your post below!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif">God's design is often inscrutable, but always there.
Humanity can only experience the surface --and sees evil
(unexpected/distorted): "What is the difference between God and virtual
God?" </span><span style="font-size:24pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif;color:rgb(192,0,0)">"Virtual God is
real." It's the software programmer.</span><span style="font-size:24pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif;color:rgb(0,112,192)"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"times new roman",serif">Could you
elaborate on the following sentence: "glitch is a great cyborgian form,
whether intentionally created, or not.."</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"times new roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)">Sure.
One of the first “theorists” I ever read was Donna Haraway, in 1991 when we
were both living in Santa Cruz. Her Manifesto about Simians, Cyborgs, &
Women really knocked me out & I kind of took it to heart & mind. The
idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human & machine, made
(makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that uses digital media
non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. That was the reference point. Glitch
can of course be done non-digitally (with scissors, paint, arms, <i>quod libet</i>) so it’s not exclusive to
computers. I know a few people who, using software (as well as output
manipulation) do intentional glitch work; othertimes, it happens by accident
& comes to eyes, ears, etc. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;color:rgb(0,112,192)">I’m
sure I didn’t say enough, or address everything, but that’s it for the moment.
Bests, CF</span><span style="color:rgb(0,112,192)"></span></p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Bruce, you have hooked up with the Project ten years earlier than me. I had just returned from living in London for almost two years (and I had said to my wife Karen that if I don't see another beautiful green park in my life I'll be happy). I wanted to go to a poetry event in New York. It was Wednesday, and at the Project Paul <span id="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail-m_-5338362013860886814gmail-:2ju.1">Auster</span> was presenting his anthology of French poetry that he had edited with multiple readers (to me the most memorable was Armand <span id="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail-m_-5338362013860886814gmail-:2ju.2">Schwerner</span> reading his <span id="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail-m_-5338362013860886814gmail-:2ju.3">Michaux</span> translations). That was it. I became friends with Bob <span id="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail-m_-5338362013860886814gmail-:2ju.4">Rosenthal</span> and Simon <span id="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail-m_-5338362013860886814gmail-:2ju.5">Pettet</span> who had introduced Paul, and we created The Committee for International Poetry. That was another adventure.<br><br></div>I agree with you about the ups and down of the Project. We all heard our share of boring stuff there. I did doze off occasionally but the place always seemed to come through. A lot of poets, artists came from different parts of the States and the world and <span id="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail-m_-5338362013860886814gmail-:2ju.6">learned</span> from and collaborated with each other. <br><br>What the Project has been doing is what the Web is doing now. I have had long term collaborations with artists over the years whom I have never met. That is the huge positive of the digital world.<br><br>"<span style="font-family:cambria">We did want to focus attention on language itself as the medium, but I'm not
ready to embrace some of your characterization:
words & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize
them in other ways beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for
us, the author's personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric
expectations). We tended to want the readers' experience at the center — which
cuts against some of this binary of yours about the sensual, movement-based vs.
logical aspects of language"<br><br></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria">Bruce, when you say "</span><span style="font-family:cambria">We tended to want the readers' experience at the center," are you saying anything different than saying "I want the text at the center," the reader reading the text? The question interests me because in my essay The Peripheral Space of Photography, I assert that what is important in a photograph is not the photographer's focus (framing), but what escapes that framing. The real <span id="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail-m_-5338362013860886814gmail-:2ju.7">dialogue</span> occurs between the watcher of the photograph and what is in front of the lens (human or a landscape, etc.). If, as I think you are to saying, it is the reader (and not purely the text), then even the "reveries" the reader builds around the text reading it become part of it. Is that not so?<br><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:cambria">"Logical" was an unfortunate choice of words, on my part. I am more interested in the distinction between predicated idea (therefore fixed) and thought as process (therefore movement). One can have thought and/in movement (that's what Eda is). In that way, thought is sensual.<br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:cambria"><br>"</span><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">So if there's an "exchange"
it's a mutual bending (which might be way too mutually disruptive to warrant
being called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more like the relationship
between a 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by the way, doesn't "the
dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]? <br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Yes, mutually bending and disruptive, not a synthesis. That's what a true, transforming translation does, bends, alters both languages, discovers potentialities in them. Walter Benjamin does see a synthesis in the process when he writes that in a translation "A" does not move to "B" but both move to a third place "C</span> ," which he calls "ideal language." Some people believe Benjamin was being a "poet" (poet in the pejorative sense) here. "Ideal language" is a mystical fantasy. I am not one of them. I believe it is part of the core of his very original concept of translation.<br></span><br><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">"... doesn't "the
dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?"<br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Not necessarily. I believe in an art or poetry of continuous dialectic. The Talmud, where the interpretations of a holy passage are never resolved and remain always multiple, is such a text.<br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">To be continued (inviting others to join).<br><br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Ciao,<br></span></span></div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span style="font-family:cambria">Murat<br></span></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Andrews <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andrews@fordham.edu" target="_blank">andrews@fordham.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria">Hi all — finally figured
out a little more about the interface [one of my least favorite words] &
receiving messages intriguingly dated many hours ahead — from Australia — so
it's already Thanksgiving the day before.<span></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria">Thanks, on Thanksgiving
[with recent political events, e.g. the trumpocalypse, having disrupted so many
things I was hoping for & hoping to give thanks for], Murat, for your Intro.<span></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria">Nice to think of the
Poetry Project as a site for adventurous exploring — certainly it's where I
first had a chance to talk with you (often about matters political, Turkey,
etc. — I started going there, & getting to read every couple years, right
after arriving in NYC in 1975, to take a job as a Political Science professor
[American Imperialism my specialty] wch lasted 38 of the 41 years since). <span></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria">The so-called 'Language Poets'
actually tended to question whether the consensus 'New York School/Beat' styles
honored at the PProject was really still devoted to adventurously
"exploring the outer limits and possibilities" of the medium: our
aesthetics had taken shape in the early to mid 1970s, mostly outside of NY
& hashed out in the mail rather than face to face in any community 'scene'.
We did want to focus attention on language itself as the medium, but I'm not
ready to embrace some of your characterization:
words & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize
them in other ways beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for
us, the author's personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric
expectations). We tended to want the readers' experience at the center — which
cuts against some of this binary of yours about the sensual, movement-based vs.
logical aspects of language. If I had to choose sides there, I'd always go with
movement & the sensory, as a way to 'volatilize' & 'capacitate' its
potential readers; my own writing certainly doesn't get much acclaim for being "logical".
But I'd rather step outside any polemical wrangling about the poetry we do
& keep things focused on the digital front:
for instance, whether an online presentation tends to help or hinder the
kinds of reading that put movement & the senses in the forefront.<span></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:cambria">On your question: I don't think that verbal language is
basically a self-referential system; instead, it seems more like a messy hybrid.
And so is what happens via the computer & the web: this may be distinctive
as a linguistic/communicative arrangement, but that's not exactly what I see in
the idea of it creating its own system. So if there's an "exchange"
it's a mutual bending (which might be way too mutually disruptive to warrant
being called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more like the relationship
between a 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by the way, doesn't "the
dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]? <span></span></span></p><div><span style="font-family:cambria"><span> </span></span><br class="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<br>
I have known these week's guest participants or been familiar with their works for years. They have all been, directly or indirectly, part of the Poetry Project poetry and art community. A spirit of adventure exploring the outer limits and possibilities each of his or her own media that has been the characteristic of the place since 1960's for fifty years permeates all of them.<br>
<br>
I met Chris Funkhauser first in 1994 during a Poetry Project symposium on "Revolutionary Poetry." He and his friend Belle Gironde --both University of Albany students at the time-- along with three other young people had organized an "unofficial" workshop on "Poetry and Technology" that, if I remember correctly, had set up its tent out in the garden of the church. I was a member of the final panel that presented overviews of the symposium. As part of my preparation, I visited the workshop. I was so struck by what they were doing, by the spirit of Dada in their manifesto of the virtual --yes, the possibilities of a virtual poetry was infused with Dada mojo at the time-- that I spent a final, significant portion of my talk on that workshop. I felt what the workshop was saying contained a significant portion of the revolutionary spirit the symposium was searching for. Chris and I remained friends ever since. Interestingly, Bruce Andrews, the second guest participant this week, was another member of that panel also.<br>
<br>
Here are two passages from "Takes or Mis-takes from the Revolutionary Symposium, The Poetry Project, May 5-8, 1994," the second being its ending. The talk consisted of quotations from the symposium (peppered with my reactions):<br>
<br>
"What's the difference between God and virtual God?"<br>
"Virtual God is real." It's the software programer.<br>
<br>
"From The Poetry and Technology workshop: 'Give free shit to lure them…. Commodity lives," Eric Swensen, the 'Enema' of Necro Enema Amalgamated, producers of the manifesto BLAM!"<br>
<br>
Bruce Andrew was with Charles Bernstein the co-editor of the ground breaking poetry magazine L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E which, as the "=" signs in the title implies, ushered a new attitude towards poetry and language. Letters, words relate more to each other than to a referential point outside. The result was the transforming (and influential on younger poets) poetry movement Language School of which Bruce is a key member. As a poet, I have had serious disagreements with strict (in my view, almost fundementalist) take on language the movement embodies. I come from the East (Turkey). Though equally exploring, my view of language is different, more sensual, based on movement than logic. I tried to bring these qualities to English language and American poetry though my concept of Eda. On the other, I must admit the poetry of my friends in the States inevitably bent the direction of my work. I believe Eda will do, and is already doing, the same even though though the effect is not totally visible yet.<br>
<br>
There is one question I would like very much Bruce to explore, if at all possible, among many others. The computer seems to create its own linguistic/communicative system. If verbal language also is basically a self-referential system, how do you see the possibility of exchange between these two entities? Is it at all, possible? If so, what has to bend to accommodate the other? In other words, is the relationship towards synthesis or always dialectical?<br>
<br>
I saw Sally Silvers dance for the first time years ago during a Poetry Project New Years' Day Marathon. I was immediate struck by the uniqueness and originality of her dance. Over the years I tried to answer that question because I felt it said something important, not only about but beyond dance. Gradually, a picture emerged. Even watching avant-garde or "experimental" dancers, I always feel that their movements are rehashed, coming out of a repertoire of established avant grade movements. There was nothing of that in Sally Silver's dancing. Every movement was itself, nothing more, nothing less. The movements had a solidity, embodying the reality of gravity that run through them and shaped them. That earth bound clarity was a thrilling thing to see. I am looking forward to what she has to say about dance or anything else.<br>
<br>
All the Empyre members, welcome to the fourth week.<br>
<br>
Ciao,<br>
Murat<br>
<br>
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<a href="http://empyre.library.cornell.edu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://empyre.library.cornell.<wbr>edu</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="m_-667793733761984368m_8430438613431146178m_2149164012946978826m_-5301893547432881570m_-8961937977874389441m_-2636065918625181114m_-5993698260121149365m_-3767383256747255240m_1239779886241123807gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Dr. Christopher T. Funkhouser<br>Program Director, Communication and Media<br>Department of Humanities<br>New Jersey Institute of Technology<br>University Heights<br>Newark, NJ 07102<br><a href="http://web.njit.edu/%7Efunkhous" target="_blank">http://web.njit.edu/~funkhous</a><br><a href="mailto:funkhous@njit.edu" target="_blank">funkhous@njit.edu</a></div></div>
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