<div dir="ltr">Yes, Ruth. Thank you for your response.<div><br></div><div>Murat</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 11:03 PM Ruth Catlow <<a href="mailto:ruthcatlow@gmail.com">ruthcatlow@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Murat,<div><br></div><div>I take your point. And its a good call to invite me to re-read Alan's post, which I think resonates with my own (in the description of grandparent as a constraining assigned role).</div><div><br></div><div>I was careless. I value the insights into systemic oppression offered by intersectional feminist approaches when thinking about this. AND I should have made clear that I understand patriarchy (asserted through religion, law and family) to be equally oppressive and restrictive to people regardless of their sex. </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div>Ruth</div><div><br><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 7:15 PM Murat Nemet-Nejat <<a href="mailto:muratnn@gmail.com" target="_blank">muratnn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi Ruth and other participants,<div><br></div><div>Why is the issue and prejudices around aging are focused around women with the added implication that these prejudices are the work of men ("<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">the machinery of patriarch")? As if men do not get old and suffer social prejudices despite the fact that Alan Sondheim gave a good list of them. As far as I can see, no one resp[onded to him. I thinkwe should try to get outside our narrow identity frameworks if we want any meaningful discussios nor sharing of experiences.</span></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">Ciao,</span></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">Murat</span></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 11:20 AM Ruth Catlow <<a href="mailto:ruthcatlow@gmail.com" target="_blank">ruthcatlow@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">I'd like to thank you all, and especially Annie, for your writing in this thread.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">I remember in 2010 when Annie wrote about menopause and sexuality. I was struck by her anger that no-one ever told her/us that it might be that way. </p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">The anger alerted me to something very important.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">It hadn't occurred to me then that my aging body-chemistry could permanently change the way it feels to be alive, and in relation to other people...which it does. </p><p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">And that if it could, that it might open up whole new dimensions of relating and resonating with the world, whilst leaving behind others. It does. </p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">It also hadn't really dawned on me how much of my place in the world was made out of something like sexuality, and therefore narrated and shaped by a mess of political social construction.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">This is a very difficult topic to be open about on a personal level...another layer of the machinery of patriarchy that determines women's identity and role in relation to the institution of the family (rehearsing an old Christian line here I know) - of women's best destiny lying along the continuum of innocent girl, through sexual creature and nurturing mother, to kind grandmother, to scary crone - with sexuality confined to sexual creature and mother segment. To step off this line is still to invite blame, shame and harm in so many many places.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">And as with many feminist questions, much of the delicate work of confronting and rewriting the given narrative to match a living experience that breaks oppressive and unjust constraints, has to be done first, in private, to avoid exposing and betraying the personal trust of our closest friends and lovers. Our shared experiences cannot automatically be used as subject for public examination.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">So I read this thread as a wonderful use of the extended zone of trust created by this 'soft skinned space'. I am deeply appreciative of the courage and directness of this conversation.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><3<3<3<3</p>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">Ruth</p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 1:01 PM Annie Abrahams <<a href="mailto:bram.org@gmail.com" target="_blank">bram.org@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Sandy,</div><div><br></div><div>I'm sorry if I gave that impression, but your remarks were so full of <span id="gmail-m_578710099522441890gmail-m_8155858119151066376gmail-m_-1606299734809352443gmail-m_73748627229827555gmail-m_2785632438500594676:1cb.1">enthusiasm</span> and positivity that I needed another take on it. I think you understand that.<br></div><div>Your remark triggered something in me that I tried to analyze and write into existence. <br></div><div>That is not easy.<br></div><div>I
am still thinking about starting a short research that tries to talk
about sex and ageing. Take a month to see and read all I can, to do some
interviews and record what I find on a website. Trying to scetch a very
divers map of the "territory". I feel an urge, but is it enough .... is
it important?</div><div>Would others be interested? and how should I approach such a thing to let it be important to others? <br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheering back</div><div>Annie<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 5:28 AM Allucquere Rosanne Stone <<a href="mailto:allucquere.stone@gmail.com" target="_blank">allucquere.stone@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi Annie,<br>
<br>
I'm not sure if you were claiming that my remarks, insofar as they
touched on sex, confirmed "mainstream" ideas. Perhaps what I wrote
could have been read that way, but only if you don't know me very well.
:-)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Sandy<br>
<br>
<br>
<span>Annie Abrahams wrote on 9/27/19 4:18 AM:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------</pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="gmail-m_578710099522441890gmail-m_8155858119151066376gmail-m_-1606299734809352443gmail-m_73748627229827555gmail-m_5520831830124499967mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear all,</div><div>
<span></span>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-GB">When McKenzie asked about
ageing and Sandy answered I felt unease. I thought my own experience
not relevant for the context and so I didn't react. Also I needed some
distance to check my feelings and to see if this wasn't an
only personal issue. So I wrote Shu Lea and talked with friends.
<br>Thanks Shu Lea for inviting me to try to express myself. <br><br>
My reaction is not about “us” older people – we
find our ways - it is for the younger ones (as the 18 year old
McKenzie) so they will have a more diverse image of what might come.
Sexuality in old age and ageing in
general are subjects that are not treated seriously. Ageing can be
hard and we should be openly talking about it in detail. Ageing is
also beautiful, yes, but not only ….<br>We all have our own
stories, our own way of dealing, enjoying and mourning about it.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-GB"><a name="m_578710099522441890_m_8155858119151066376_m_-1606299734809352443_m_73748627229827555_m_5520831830124499967_m_-8783282612962121276_m_-5339945969783312885gmail-m_9074415231265267106freeTextContainer40794353748739892913"></a>
After rereading Sandy's reaction to McKenzie I saw she was more subtile
than I
first thought, so why was I angry? Probably because hers was the only
reaction to McKenzie's question and it was confirming “main
stream” ideas I see too often in popular media. <br>“Sex after
60 is still good - it's impossibility is a myth - there are simple
solutions for vaginal dryness and erection and ejaculation problems -
but you need to take care, to keep it going, to learn how to keep it
up ….. “. <br>Why should I do that? Why?
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-GB">For me it feels as if I
would have to conform to an unwritten rule. Sex is about penetration
…..</p>Is it?<br>Not for me, at least not
anymore. There is something “fake” about suggesting it is. We
need diversity in the discourse. There should be more stories …
<br>Life didn't go on as before and media shouldn't
pretend it should / could. It doesn't! And we shouldn't punish
ourselves with “false” ideas.
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-GB">For me life became easier
- I am now 65. Getting older means going to the important things, not
being bothered anymore, but still, I am confronted almost daily with
thoughts and things not possible anymore. I doubt what is normal and
what not, I resist, I give way. I fear the loneliness coming - I
choose not to have children. <br>Sexuality for me is affection,
tenderness and bodily sensations and that can still be terrific
(great and terrifying at the same time), but it is completely
different from the hormone influenced frenzy, athletic activity it
was before. So why call it still sex?<br></p> <br>
<span lang="en-GB">Something
of what I feel might be visible in a 3 min video performance I did
with Martina Ruhsam in 2015. "</span><span lang="en-GB"><i>besides,
Dear Body</i></span><span lang="en-GB">" was a Turbulence
commission. You can see the archive <a href="https://vimeo.com/131117890" target="_blank">https://vimeo.com/131117890</a>. </span><span lang="en-GB">I wrote about the performance afterwards:</span><br><span lang="en-GB"></span><span lang="en-GB">“</span><i><span lang="en-GB">It
felt as if we created a continuum in difference and made a statement
that said „don’t worry, this is life“. I wanted it to be a
gift. There was a big shock when I looked at the recording of the
performance, when I looked at my naked body. I see this body every
day in a mirror, but the video image is not the same as a mirror
image – there was no head, no action going on, just the body to
look at. It took time to overcome my personal aversion to my own
ageing body, to accept the breathing image, to accept its reality, to
let the video live as an independent object showing ageing, a tender
connexion, and a crack.</span></i><span lang="en-GB">”
<a href="https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/besides-some-reflections-on-the-first-three-performances/" target="_blank">https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/besides-some-reflections-on-the-first-three-performances/</a></span>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><span lang="en-GB">Ageing is related to
"death" another "taboo" subject - too
intimate to talk about? In “</span><span lang="en-GB"><i>besides,
moved by some thing.</i></span><span lang="en-GB">” also a
turbulence commissions with Martina Ruhsam we talked about death and
dying. <a href="https://vimeo.com/131117872" target="_blank">https://vimeo.com/131117872</a>
(49 min)</span></p>"<i>When facing death
or illness all the accumulated knowledge surrounding these issues is
displaced by experiences that can hardly be shared. Can liminal
experiences be communicated verbally?</i>" <br></div><div><br></div><div>After
this we had several private online conversation sessions with 6 women
on the subject. Then we stopped ... technology was not easy for all,
connexion sometimes bad and life brought us elsewhere. For some time I
have been thinking about starting a "death café" in Montpellier ( <a href="https://deathcafe.com" target="_blank">https://deathcafe.com</a>
) but ....<br></div><div>Unfinished, ongoing...</div><div><br></div><div>merci
thanks dank </div></div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep
27, 2019 at 7:46 AM Shu Lea Cheang <<a href="mailto:shulea@earthlink.net" target="_blank">shulea@earthlink.net</a>>
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>dear empyre-ers</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The September month on -empyre-
doesnt seem to be ending, so many threads to follow up...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Let me recall some moments - <br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>McKenzie Wark ever so inncocently –
11/09/2019 post</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana">So Sandy: can you tell
me a it about
ageing? I just turned 58 and am already a middle aged woman...</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana">Allucquere
Rosanne Stone ever so
cheerfully – 12/09/2019 post</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana">I
can
only tell you about aging from a personal perspective.<span> </span>So
ok, I’m, what, 82, 83,
something?<span> </span>I write,
code, make stuff, and raise hell,
active in several professional fields, sex is terrific…if
anything, it gets
better with time.<span> </span>This
isn’t a tell-all,
so I’ll leave it at that.<span> </span>I
don’t hike,
climb, or snowboard as much as I did, but I’m beginning to
think that’s
psychological.<span> </span>Anyway,
if it’s words of
encouragement you want, you can have all I’ve got, and I’ve
got plenty.<span> </span>I’m fully
aware that my view is not a
universal one, and I can’t speak for trans* folk who find
aging hard.<span> </span>But from
this admittedly limited perspective,
in this particular embodiment, I intend to keep on
adventuring, theorizing, and
making love with the throttle pushed up to 110% until my body
simply
explodes.<span> </span>I invite you
to join me.</span></i></p>
<i>
</i>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Annie
Abrahams asked to bring back these topics - sex death love and
ageing</span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_578710099522441890gmail-m_8155858119151066376gmail-m_-1606299734809352443gmail-m_73748627229827555gmail-m_5520831830124499967gmail-m_5645390212435064025MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Symbol" lang="IT"><span>·<span> </span></span></span><b><span lang="IT">"</span></b><i><span lang="IT">Annie Abrahams<b><span>: </span></b>The
belief that, after menopause, sexual intercourse goes on as
before is mistaken.
At least it didn’t for me. This made me really angry for some
time, as nobody
had warned me! It felt very lonely. I think that the sexual
life of
post-menopausal women is still very much a taboo subject that
people shun away
from.</span></i><span lang="IT">" <a href="http://digicult.it/digimag/issue-058/annie-abrahams-allergic-to-utopias/" target="_blank">http://digicult.it/digimag/issue-058/annie-abrahams-allergic-to-utopias/</a>
(2010)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="IT"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="IT">For
these last few days of September as leaves yet to fall off the
branches, I like to introduce Annie Abrahams, also bring in </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">Miha Colner, the
curator who’s
been preparing an exhibition <i><span>On Ageing at </span></i><span>MGLC
– International Centre
of Graphic Arts (</span></span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">Ljublijan,
Slovania). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:none;background-color:white;background-position:0% 0%"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;color:rgb(34,34,34)" lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana">Annie
Abrahams is a Dutch artist
living in France. She has a
M2 in biology from the University of Utrecht and a MA2 from the
Academy of Fine
Arts of Arnhem. In her work she questions the possibilities and
limits of communication,
specifically investigating its modes under networked conditions.
Using video
and performance as well as the internet, she develops what she
calls an
aesthetics of attention and trust, in which human behaviour is
the main
material. She is known worldwide for her netart and is an
internationally
regarded pioneer of networked performance art and collective
writing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana">Full
cv
bio (336 Ko) <a href="https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_cvbio_eng.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_cvbio_eng.pdf</a><br>
2.3 Mo 20 pages with images - book <a href="https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_images.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_images.pdf</a></span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><span lang="EN-GB">Miha
Colner(1978) is an
art historian who works
as a curator at MGLC - International Centre of Graphic Arts,
Ljubljana. He is
also active as a publicist, specialised in photography,
printmaking, artists’
moving image and various forms of (new) media art. Since 2005 he
has been a
contributor of newspapers, magazines, specialist publications,
and his personal
blog, as well as part-time lecturer. He lives and works in
Ljubljana, Slovenia.</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Verdana"><a href="http://mihacolner.com/" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB">http://mihacolner.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Verdana;color:rgb(84,141,212)">
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><span><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><span lang="EN-GB">Let's
see how this run,
maybe try to smoke Sandy out of cave and get warkk to bring in
some techno beats!<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><span lang="EN-GB">sl</span><br>
<span lang="EN-GB"></span><span></span></p>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><b>DECAL</b> Decentralised Arts Lab is an <span style="font-size:12.8px">arts, blockchain & web 3.0 technologies</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> research hub </span></p><p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">for fairer, more dynamic & connected cultural ecologies & economies now. </p><p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><a href="http://www.decal.is" target="_blank">decal.is</a></p></div><div><br></div><div>Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee <br>registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205. <br>Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade, Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.</div><div><br></div><div></div><div></div></div><div></div></div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="http://empyre.library.cornell.edu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://empyre.library.cornell.edu</a></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_578710099522441890gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 20px;width:1142px;font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:medium"><div style="font-size:12.8px;margin:8px 0px 0px;padding:0px"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Co-founder & Artistic director of Furtherfield & DECAL Decentralised Arts Lab</div><div>+44 (0) 77370 02879 <br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"><b>Furtherfield </b>disrupts and democratises art and technology </span><span style="font-size:12.8px;white-space:pre-wrap">through
</span><span style="font-size:12.8px;white-space:pre-wrap">exhibitions, labs & debate, for </span><span style="font-size:12.8px;white-space:pre-wrap">deep exploration, open tools & free thinking. </span></div><div><a href="http://www.furtherfield.org/" target="_blank">furtherfield.org</a></div><div><br></div><div>
<p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><b>DECAL</b> Decentralised Arts Lab is an <span style="font-size:12.8px">arts, blockchain & web 3.0 technologies</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> research hub </span></p><p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap">for fairer, more dynamic & connected cultural ecologies & economies now. </p><p style="margin:0px;white-space:pre-wrap"><a href="http://www.decal.is" target="_blank">decal.is</a></p></div><div><br></div><div>Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee <br>registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205. <br>Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade, Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.</div><div><br></div><div></div><div></div></div><div></div></div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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