RE: [-empyre-] RE: [-empyre-]::An Avatar Manifesto::response to Alan

"Gregory Little" <glittle@oberlin.net> · Sat Nov 23 02:41:01 2002

> I was using the word "emanant" - from
>emanation of course - to replace "avatar," because of the messiness of the
>relationship. (By "messy" I'm also referencing Kristeva's notion of the
>abject as part and parcel of the body, and not - Powers of Horror).

Hmmm, I am confused, I am very familiar with Kristeva's "The Powers of
Horror, and essay on Abjection", and am not understanding the distinction
you are making:
>"By "messy" I'm also referencing Kristeva's notion of the abject as part
and parcel of the body, and not - Powers of Horror" ?

>I did an interview with him by the way in Beehive, dealing with what I
still see as
>the problematics of his approach (among other things).

Is it online?  If so, can you direct us to it?  I would love to see it!

>I've used perl scripts etc. to create a catalyst, already tearing away the
text I
>write, transforming it.

I see, a text based avatar, I think actually a perfectly viable avatar form,
again, skips over the messiness of vistual representation and forms a pure
instrument.  Again, is this online?

>One question - doesn't the tearing-away always occur, the transference-
>coupling, etc., to a greater or lesser degree? And wouldn't this degree be
>on the increase? I wonder what happens psychoanalytically for example in a
>Mud when external forces transform/tire/wound/kill/etc. one's avatar -
>which in a way is at least acted upon idenpendently. And wouldn't this
>then get into some sort of game-theory in relation to role-playing, which
>is not only from within (i.e. projection) but without (i.e. the gamer is
>acted upon, but only through the mediation of the character)?

Yes, a very valid point, I will concede that the tearing away process is
part of a continuum, dependent upon both the online environment, and the
intelligence of the avatar.....from a dumb strap-on at one end of the
spectrum to an AI form at the other.  And, I suppose that although a dumb
strap-on may not necessarily tear away from its referent, it can incite
responses that could act upon the user in corporeal space at a number of
levels.

Gregory

-----Original Message-----
From: empyre-admin@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
[mailto:empyre-admin@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au]On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:37 AM
To: empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
Subject: Re: [-empyre-] RE: [-empyre-]::An Avatar Manifesto::response to
Alan

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Gregory Little wrote:

> Alan writes.....
> >In my own work, 'Nikuko' is an avatar, but psychologically she 'takes
> >over' in my work, as if she's speaking through me; the psychoanalytical
> >processes of this internal ectoplasm are different from the usual
> >projections (i.e. such as I might use in a conference or IRC chat).
>
> wow, a fascinating form of transference/countertransference, what would
> Freud think?
>
That's a good way to think of it. I was using the word "emanant" - from
emanation of course - to replace "avatar," because of the messiness of the
relationship. (By "messy" I'm also referencing Kristeva's notion of the
abject as part and parcel of the body, and not - Powers of Horror).

> >- which I think is more-or-less what occurs with chatrooms, etc. But
there
> >are extensions which can be of incredible interest, at least to me. With
> >Stelarc, for example, some of his recent work deals with an online avatar
> >driven by expert systems that modifies Stelarc's stance/body itself -
>
> I am aware of an "avatar" that Stelarc had online a few years ago, whose
> morphology was driven by users interactions, numbers of hits; I am also
> aware of his stunning "ping body" telematic performative piece; when you
say
> that Stelarc's body/stance itself is modified, are you describing a
> performative work, like ping body?
>
It's a piece he described, I think at the Book/Ends conference, in which a
smart agent "uses" Stelarc - the agent roams the web. I don't think it's
completed yet, but I'm not sure. It's not the ping body or the performance
you mention (which I saw in Perth). I did an interview with him by the way
in Beehive, dealing with what I still see as the problematics of his
approach (among other things).

> >In other words, there's a tearing-away involved which is related to, but
> >not the same as, the usual issues dealing with the future autonomy or not
> >of virtual life and intelligence.
>
> Yes, and fascinating journeys, but again, I am interested in what happens
> when the tearing does not occur, at least from the individual...I am
> interested in a tearing away of the avatar from Kapital.  I recall Simon
> Penny's horror, recounted in his "The Virtualization of Artistic
Practice",
> of someone stating at ISEA, that they do not share his nostalgia for the
> body.  At this point in my investigations, I try and focus on
interactivity
> and cybernetic systems of feedback, recursivity, and autopoesis from the
> point of view of the human, not the machine, even on excursions into
liminal
> spaces.
> I have found a couple of AI projects that involved a tearing away to be
> really fascinating, most notably for me is Eric Mueller's Daydreamer
> project:
> http://www.panix.com/~erik/programs/daydreamer/
> It is entirely text based, and very rich...
>
> Alan, how does 'Nikuko' work, where can I find him/her?

Nikuko doesn't work; I've written through her or vice versa. I've used
perl scripts etc. to create a catalyst, already tearing away the text I
write, transforming it. But Nikuko as an entity/software body - I haven't
done that yet.

Alan

>
> Gregory
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: empyre-admin@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> [mailto:empyre-admin@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au]On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:52 AM
> To: empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] Virtual Construction::An Avatar Manifesto
>
>
>
>
> You write
>
>  The avatar is essentially a
> visual representation, a virtual instrument or imaged prosthesis of its
> referent-the user, and so fundamentally related to linguistic signs and
> representational icons.
>
> - which I think is more-or-less what occurs with chatrooms, etc. But there
> are extensions which can be of incredible interest, at least to me. With
> Stelarc, for example, some of his recent work deals with an online avatar
> driven by expert systems that modifies Stelarc's stance/body itself - a
> not-so-distant Net will enable 'its' intelligence, of one form or another,
> to be embodied, almost as a secondary or parasitic entity, in a living
> person. Stelarc talks about remapping of the body in this regard.
>
> There are also things like the wandering Julia bots, which can be consid-
> ered software that has broken away.
>
>
> In other words, there's a tearing-away involved which is related to, but
> not the same as, the usual issues dealing with the future autonomy or not
> of virtual life and intelligence.
>
> Alan
>
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