[-empyre-] from chris, independents, animation in teaching.

[aslemeur at free.fr]

Hi everybody

nice discussion.
sorry not to take part in a more developped way - englis is a foreign language
to me and I don't have so much free time.
I was waiting for this generative question to arise !!

can't you make both ?
with words and parameters because this process of creation is stimulating,
(I don't speak on visualising datas)
and with glances and awareness on space and rythms ?

because the constraint to formulate visual art intention in words and rational
mathematical language is so paradoxal (and difficult ans slow... I believe in
slowness), it can unleash 'renewed-old' ideas ?

here is my 'generative-animated' work
http://aslemeur.free.fr/projets/oeil_eng.htm
(to download for pc or java version)
a intermingling of influences ?
painting, abstract cinema and plays/thwart on numbers

regards,

Anne-Sarah Le Meur
http://aslemeur.free.fr

Selon Richard Wright <futurenatural at blueyonder.co.uk>:

> A few years ago I started making live action films, partly (I admit)
> as a way of making films more quickly than animating them.
> Nope, it didn't work. A year later it was still "in post". I found I
> was making the film word by word, glance by glance, inch by inch
> instead of frame by frame. You can take the artist out of animation
> but you can't take animation out of the artist.
>
> R
>
> On 19 Feb 2010, at 14:43, christopher sullivan wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi everyone, as the week draws to the end, It has been an
> > interesting mix of
> > thoughts and ideas. One thing that I wanted to talk about before
> > things draw to
> > a close is my hopes for animation, and my thoughts on a pedagogical
> > side.
> >              I feel that the independent animated feature is going
> > to increase
> > exponentially in years to come (just hope I get my film to screen
> > before it is
> > a infinite pool) I do hope that these new films will not be plagued
> > with the
> > remakes and adaptations that are now overtaking Hollywood. Besides
> > Charley
> > Kaufman, who is getting original scripts produced?  Even Wes
> > Anderson’s
> > (another script writer) Incredible Mr. Fox, is an adaptation, again
> > Charley
> > Kaufman prophetic, in the writing of Adaptation.
> >              So the thing that we independent animators have to do
> > is create
> > works that really take advantage of the qualities of animation that
> > set it
> > apart from live action film, and particular for the west to catch
> > up with some
> > of the cinematic chances taken in the east “for instance, Paprika”
> > or the
> > highly disturbing Mindgame. Fringe feature anime is politically very
> > conservative in particular with gender politics, and I am not even
> > talking
> > about being queer enough, I am referring to the heterosexually
> > conservative,
> > and completely fraternal in the sense of the internal mind; men
> > imagining
> > fantasies of women.   But these films are very sophisticated in
> > regards to
> > filmmaking. How they play with time, how they create and destroy
> > characters, in
> > constant sates of death and resurrection. So I hope that We as
> > filmmakers can
> > get the backing to create innovative films that challenge audiences
> > not as
> > people going to see animation, but going to see demanding cinema.
> > See you in
> > the trenches.
> >
> >          One other thought I wanted to bring up is whether you
> > think that
> > animation is really a good tool to teach artists how to think. I
> > have debated
> > this for years because of its very slow turn around, and the
> > literal amount of
> > idea stuff that a student can handle during their studies. Every
> > successful
> > student I have had, has had other outlets to plow through and
> > discard ideas, be
> > it photography, comics, performance, live action films, writing. I
> > have never
> > had an exclusive animator that I feel really used their time in
> > school fully.
> > I learned more about making art in my early twenties in school doing
> > performance than doing animation, though my artistic identity as an
> > animation
> > artist via grants awards, employment, solidified at this time as
> > well.  I am
> > pondering these questions; Is animation a medium that condenses
> > other artistic
> > experiences into a less temporal vision, but not the best
> > generative medium? Is
> > it a good intellectual teaching medium? Of course this is about
> > matters of
> > degrees, as I do believe my students grow in my classes, but they
> > do grow
> > slowly.
> > What are people’s thoughts?
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Eric Patrick <ericp at northwestern.edu>:
> >
> >> Hi Richard,
> >>
> >> This is really fascinating stuff...  not my area of expertise, but
> >> Fernanda
> >> Viegas of IBM research in Cambridge is doing some of this sort of
> >> work
> >> (http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/).  Probably what we
> >> see more of
> >> in our little animation neck of the woods is info-graphics for
> >> visualization:
> >> http://vimeo.com/3261363.  Perhaps Paul is still around and may
> >> have some
> >> interesting sources to add.
> >> Sorry can't be of more help...
> >>
> >> ep
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==============Original message text===============
> >> On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 5:25:13 pm CST Richard Wright wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi there,
> >> I just wanted to respond to a couple of recent posts about animated
> >> documentary and those thorny indexicality questions.
> >>
> >> I once wrote a proposal called "Data Visualisation as the Successor
> >> to Documentary Film Making" (thinking actually of animated film
> >> making). I wonder if Paul or Erik or anyone else had any thoughts
> >> about this possibility of taking data records and animating them?
> >> Either directly and algorithmically or using more interpretative or
> >> even non-digital techniques? The source of the data and the
> >> circumstances in which it was obtained can also create difficult
> >> ethical questions, quite apart from questions of veracity (they might
> >> have been obtained under torture for example).
> >>
> >> There are very few film examples of this I can think of, not even my
> >> own. One of the few is Aaron Koblin's "Flight Patterns" (http://
> >> www.aaronkoblin.com/work/flightpatterns) and another is Jane
> >> Marsching's "Rising North" (http://www.flickr.com/photos/
> >> efimeravulgata/3496999939 for a view of the installation version of
> >> the video). Andrea Polli possibly. Much of it to do with climate
> >> change data. I'm not mentioning these specific ones because I
> >> particularly like them (the "Rising North" piece, for instance, looks
> >> a bit too much to me like deciphering a multimedia interface). But I
> >> was struggling to think of any others and I wondered if anyone else
> >> knew of any film makers that were moving in this direction...
> >>
> >> Richard
> >>
> >> On 15 Feb 2010, at 18:37, Paul Ward wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi, it's me again!
> >>>
> >>> A couple of my main research interests are Animation (quelle
> >>> surprise!) and Documentary, and I've been looking into how
> >>> animation and nonfiction work together (or not) for some time now.
> >>>
> >>> See Chapter 5 of my book "Documentary: The Margins of
> >>> Reality" (Wallflower, 2005); plus "Animated interactions: animation
> >>> aesthetics and the 'interactive' documentary" in S. Buchan (ed.)
> >>> with David Surman and Paul Ward (Associate Eds.) Animated
> >>> 'Worlds' (John Libbey, 2006). The latter discusses 'Going Equipped'
> >>> alongside Bob Sabiston's 1999 short 'Snack and Drink'
> >>>
> >>> I think the idea of animation as a 'filter' is apposite - it is the
> >>> filter through which re-presentations of real people and events are
> >>> 'creatively treated' (to echo John Grierson again). This also makes
> >>> some interesting possible connections to animation and memory, or
> >>> animation and states of mind, and how these areas overlap (or
> >>> contrast) with 'documentary'. Animations like 'Waltz with Bashir',
> >>> 'Persepolis' or Andy Glynne's short films 'Animated minds' (about
> >>> mental health) are all, arguably, sub-types of the animated
> >>> documentary category, but approach it in very different ways
> >>>
> >>> best wishes
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>>
> >>> From: empyre-bounces at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au on behalf of
> >>> christopher sullivan
> >>> Sent: Sun 14/02/2010 18:22
> >>> To: soft_skinned_space; Suzanne Buchan
> >>> Cc: soft_skinned_space
> >>> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] CG and all things fuzzy, and some thoughts
> >>> on ethics
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Suzanne, thanks for the generous discussion. As a "practitioner"
> >>> I will say
> >>> that I am really not too bothered by the issues of representation,
> >>> and truth, or
> >>> authenticity, I think those are interesting points of discussion,
> >>> but nothing
> >>> that will ever be cured. but are we really that confused in the
> >>> theater? I have
> >>> found that children for instance have very clear understandings of
> >>> what is real,
> >>> what is manipulated, what is fantasy. the idea that media is
> >>> continuously lying
> >>> to us, can also lead to a lot of political empathy,
> >>>       I teach an alternative animation history class, and one of
> >>> our weeks we
> >>> show all non fiction animation.
> >>> here is the week.
> >>> Reading: Understanding Animation, chapter 3 Narrative strategies.
> >>> 68-92
> >>>
> >>> Week 6 October 19th NON FICTION-
> >>> These films all use animations power to manifest images that have
> >>> no filmic
> >>> record. The result is a curious take on truth and representation..
> >>> Is there an
> >>> emotional safety in these cartoony depictions, of otherwise
> >>> unbearable images?
> >>>
> >>>  Roger Ebert , speaking about Grave of the Fire flies.
> >>>  John and Faith Hubley. Sample 1960-75 The Dara Dogs. Denise
> >>> Topicoff.
> >>>  -A is for Autism, Tim Web 1998. Champaine by Michael Sporn.
> >>>   Some Protection, Marjut  Rimmenen,1987 -Brother, Adam Benjamin
> >>> Elliot 2003-
> >>>   Going Equipped ,Peter Lords 1989 -Abductees , Paul Vesters 1998
> >>>  The Fetishist, Jim Trainer 1998- Ryan, Chris Landrithe 2003
> >>>  A Room Near By, still life with animated dogs, Paul Ferlinger
> >>> 2002- 2004
> >>>
> >>> these films all deal with the strange in between possibilities of
> >>> animation as a
> >>> filter for truth. I often show Ryan this week also, The students
> >>> are always
> >>> interested in discussing the inclusion of Chris Landreth in the
> >>> film. it is
> >>> both interesting and problematic, that his desire to implicate the
> >>> documenter,
> >>> is also very problematic. does he truly believe that his state of
> >>> crisis
> >>> parallels Ryan Larkin, in a SRO facility?
> >>>
> >>> I argue that the real issue of representation through animation is
> >>> not nearly so
> >>> complicated. and why do we have to create a theoretical censoring
> >>> bureau,
> >>> just make the work, and let it hit people, all sloppy and imperfect.
> >>> do the questions below really need to be brought to some kind of
> >>> conclusion?
> >>> is it truly a crisis?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "The increasing convergence, barrage and resulting pervasiveness of
> >>>> manipulated imagery, including traditional and digital
> >>>> animation, has
> >>>> overwhelmed many of its viewers, and this has pressing
> >>>> philosophical
> >>>>  and ethical connotations. In terms of the status of indexicality
> >>>> and truth
> >>>>  claims of the visual, in 1998 Elsaesser suggested a crisis was
> >>>> evolving:
> >>>>  "Any technology that materially affects this status, and
> >>>> digitization
> >>>> would seem to be such a technology, thus puts in crisis deeply-held
> >>>>  beliefs about representation and visualization, and many of the
> >>>>  discourses - critical, scientific or aesthetic - based on, or
> >>>> formulated
> >>>>  in the name of the indexical in our culture, need to be re-
> >>>> examined."
> >>>
> >>> as media professors, I think we have to also challenge media
> >>> literacy Dogma
> >>> which implies that all viewers are completely at the mercy of the
> >>> moving image.
> >>> once something is digital, sorry Lev, but it means nothing, it is a
> >>> technical
> >>> expedient.
> >>>
> >>> Animators have the opportunity to carve out new and wonderful ways
> >>> of creating
> >>> work and bringing subjects to the screen that were not possible
> >>> before.
> >>> A true act of political subversion is the recent screening of Don
> >>> Hertsfeilds
> >>> new films. the audience came to see funny. instead they saw an
> >>> amazing maturing
> >>> of his work into a dark and beautiful piece that made me weep
> >>> several times.
> >>> He really seized the moment to talk about something important.
> >>>
> >>> I say let's focus on content, not media, and get to work making the
> >>> films that
> >>> we feel must be made. Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Quoting Suzanne Buchan <sbuchan at ucreative.ac.uk>:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Renate
> >>>>
> >>>> (I can't turn off HTML on the email I'm suing, so I hope the
> >>>> inserted line
> >>>> breaks improve reading.)
> >>>>
> >>>>  Many practice-based animation and film programmes - as well as
> >>>> photography
> >>>> and design -
> >>>>  are increasingly replacing analogue with digital, with all the
> >>>> implications.
> >>>>  While I'm not a hands-on 'practitioner' per se - I don't teach
> >>>> practice - I
> >>>> can say that
> >>>>  my university has two programmes, and both use digital tools but
> >>>> foreground
> >>>>  fine arts-based style, process and students attend life-drawing
> >>>> classes.
> >>>>  There are others who follow the same material-based philosophy,
> >>>> including
> >>>>  Simon's and the RCA' this is not, however, representative of the
> >>>> wider
> >>>> general
> >>>>  shift to digital.
> >>>>
> >>>> With the current disastrous funding cuts at HEIs in the UK, a
> >>>> room of
> >>>>  computers is more sustainable than puppet animation studios and
> >>>>  art rooms; hence it is becoming digital almost everywhere. This
> >>>> has
> >>>> implications on how students learn, speeds up production instead of
> >>>> slowing down, the process of drawing, painting and model building
> >>>> is very much part of developing narrative, and good analogue films
> >>>> need time. Others here in empyre who are practice-based can
> >>>> probably
> >>>>  answer your question better.
> >>>>
> >>>> Your question about CGI brings me to another set of thoughts about
> >>>> the
> >>>>  digital and the artefact and some ethical implications that arise
> >>>> from the
> >>>>  use of CGI in animation and film. Since the digital shift, the
> >>>> manipulated
> >>>>  moving image has been the focus of heated debates around
> >>>> representation,
> >>>>  truth values and ethical responsibility of its commissioners,
> >>>> makers and
> >>>> distributors. The unreliablility of the photographic image as it
> >>>> became
> >>>>  enhanced or altered by digital technologies has had a profound
> >>>> effect
> >>>> on audiences, a topic thematised by Thomas Elsaesser, Lev Manovich
> >>>>  and Siegfried Zielinski, ethical philosopher Jane Bennett (The
> >>>> Enchantment
> >>>>  of Modern Life, 2001) and by others who may be on empyre.
> >>>>
> >>>> The increasing convergence, barrage and resulting pervasiveness of
> >>>> manipulated imagery, including traditional and digital
> >>>> animation, has
> >>>> overwhelmed many of its viewers, and this has pressing
> >>>> philosophical
> >>>>  and ethical connotations. In terms of the status of indexicality
> >>>> and truth
> >>>>  claims of the visual, in 1998 Elsaesser suggested a crisis was
> >>>> evolving:
> >>>>  "Any technology that materially affects this status, and
> >>>> digitisation
> >>>> would seem to be such a technology, thus puts in crisis deeply-held
> >>>>  beliefs about representation and visualization, and many of the
> >>>>  discourses - critical, scientific or aesthetic - based on, or
> >>>> formulated
> >>>>  in the name of the indexical in our culture, need to be re-
> >>>> examined."
> >>>> (Elsaesser, Thomas, "Digital Cinema: Delivery, Event, time", in:
> >>>> Cinema Futures: Cain, Abel or Cable?,1998. Pp. 201-222)
> >>>>
> >>>> While following these debates, I became sensitised to one
> >>>> specific i
> >>>> mpact of manipulated images during a screening of Roland Emmerich's
> >>>> 1994 Independence Day. In the rather naive encounter between the
> >>>>  American missionaries and the alien Mother ship we witness a brief
> >>>>  moment, only a few frames, when a fireball engulfs the pilot on
> >>>> impact.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now in itself, this is not an unfamiliar scene, and it has been
> >>>> repeated
> >>>>  in action and war films to excess. My point here is that the image
> >>>> manipulation was of the 'invisible' sort, i.e. not 'in-your-face'
> >>>> CGI that
> >>>>  creates spectacle that is highly aware of its difference to so-
> >>>> called
> >>>>  normal perception and representation.
> >>>>
> >>>> The fireball in the cockpit was created to look like live action.
> >>>> So -  what's the problem? Well, in that fraction of a second of
> >>>> ID4,
> >>>> an image flashed in my mind that, depending on your generation,
> >>>> may also be indelibly etched in your own.: this 1963 photo by
> >>>> Malcolm Brown
> >>>>
> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu?ng_D?c>>
> >>>> The mental image of this while watching ID4 was an emotional
> >>>> response
> >>>>  on my part, a response of what could be described as 'negative
> >>>> empathy'
> >>>>  that incited ethical awareness about the inherent 'wrongness' of
> >>>> this scene.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This personal example might illustrate why we need articulated
> >>>> critical
> >>>> reactions to films like these, to  facilitate a sober
> >>>> understanding of the
> >>>>  impact such films are having on our collective sense of ethics.
> >>>>
> >>>>  In light of the inane acceptance of violent images
> >>>> just because we are 'used to them' and the role CGI and animation
> >>>> has to play in this, addressing the crisis rooted in the loss of
> >>>> indexical
> >>>> truth could effectively address a re-examination of the discourse
> >>>> around
> >>>>  ethical responsibility in image production. Discussions around
> >>>> animation -
> >>>>  especially the kind we are not supposed to see - have tended to
> >>>> focus
> >>>>  on technical wizardry and the properties of programmes to
> >>>> create the
> >>>>  impossible. It may be part of a new body of work for critical
> >>>> investigations
> >>>>  of spectatorial manipulation in a digital age, a territory that
> >>>> needs
> >>>>  ethical navigation to understand the philosophical
> >>>> consequences of
> >>>>  this kind of imagery.
> >>>>
> >>>> The next issue of the ANM journal (5.1) will have an essay by
> >>>> philosopher
> >>>> and cultural studies scholar Elizabeth Walden that explores just
> >>>> these
> >>>> issues
> >>>>  and discusses a puppet animation film; she discusses how
> >>>> "elements of
> >>>> the narrative structure and the camera work give the materials
> >>>> used in the
> >>>>  character's project a moral standing in the film, which draws
> >>>> audience and
> >>>>  filmmaker as well as the character into an ethical situation
> >>>> which is
> >>>> significant to our shared moment in the digital era."
> >>>>
> >>>> So I'll leave this for now, and see if anyone has some thoughts on
> >>>> it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm also happy to engage with the Quays' works, if there is
> >>>> interest out
> >>>> there.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suzanne
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: empyre-bounces at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au on behalf of Renate
> >>>> Ferro
> >>>> Sent: Sat 2/13/2010 04:37
> >>>> To: soft_skinned_space
> >>>> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] CG and all things fuzzy
> >>>>
> >>>> Dear Paul and Suzanne,
> >>>>
> >>>> Can you both talk about how CG fits into your animation
> >>>> programs?  At
> >>>> Cornell, Computer Graphics and 3D animation is taught by Computing
> >>>> faculty.  It is in the art department where students, particularly
> >>>> recently, have been creating stop action, frame by frame, roto-
> >>>> scoping,
> >>>> drawing based and a medley of other fuzzies. Whether working  from
> >>>> photography based or original drawing. their novel, quirky
> >>>> rendering
> >>>> styles, interdisciplinary interests and criticality make their
> >>>> work fresh
> >>>> and innovative.
> >>>>
> >>>> How does it work in the UK?
> >>>>
> >>>> Renate
> >>>>
> >>>> Renate Ferro
> >>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
> >>>> Department of Art
> >>>> Cornell University, Tjaden Hall
> >>>> Ithaca, NY  14853
> >>>>
> >>>> Email:   <rtf9 at cornell.edu>
> >>>> Website:  http://www.renateferro.net <http://www.renateferro.net/
> >>>> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Co-moderator of _empyre soft skinned space
> >>>> http://www.subtle.net/empyre>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> >>>> Empyre>>
> >>>> Art Editor, diacritics
> >>>> http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/dia/>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> empyre forum
> >>>> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> >>>> http://www.subtle.net/empyre>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Christopher Sullivan
> >>> Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> >>> School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> >>> 112 so michigan
> >>> Chicago Ill 60603
> >>> csulli at saic.edu
> >>> 312-345-3802
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> empyre forum
> >>> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> >>> http://www.subtle.net/empyre>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ********************************************************************
> >>> **
> >>> ***********************************
> >>>
> >>> The contents of this communication are confidential and intended
> >>> solely for the use of the named recipient(s).  If you have received
> >>> this email in error please delete it and do not disseminate,
> >>> distribute, copy or alter it.
> >>> Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author and do not
> >>> necessarily represent those of The Arts University College at
> >>> Bournemouth.
> >>>
> >>> Although The Arts University College at Bournemouth has taken
> >>> reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this
> >>> email, the University College cannot accept responsibility for any
> >>> loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments.
> >>>
> >>> ********************************************************************
> >>> **
> >>> ***********************************<winmail.dat>____________________
> >>> __
> >>> _________________________
> >>> empyre forum
> >>> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> >>> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> >> ===========End of original message text===========
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric Patrick
> >> Assistant Professor
> >> Radio/Television/Film
> >> School of Communication
> >> Northwestern University
> >> 1920 Campus Drive
> >> Evanston, Illinois  60208
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> empyre forum
> >> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> >> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> >>
> >
> >
> > Christopher Sullivan
> > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> > School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> > 112 so michigan
> > Chicago Ill 60603
> > csulli at saic.edu
> > 312-345-3802
> > _______________________________________________
> > empyre forum
> > empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>