[-empyre-] empyre Digest, Vol 68, Issue 10 / is there a will to create / the social beyond the mechanisim?

Sun Jul 18 03:00:12 EST 2010

Hi All,

May I ask: Can we posit creativity as immanent in all social groups? 
What do we do with groups that are very hierarchical or bureaucratic? If 
there are limits, then maybe we should ask about the conditions 
necessary for a group to act creatively -- or for the immanent 
possibility to get expressed through both group and individual agency?

Also, on another thread -- the degree to which we attribute magic to our 
technology is one measure of how we have lost control of it, imho. That 
it can be wonderful goes without saying, but the more we attribute 
religio-magical properties to it, the less we will assume that we have 
some responsibilities in relation to it.

Christina Spiesel

Simon Biggs wrote:
> Hi James
>
> I guess you are referring to Durkheim's concept of collective conscience. If
> so then I don't have any real problem with this and would consider it as a
> reasonable part of considering how people become socially. I am aware of it
> as a general concept but I am no expert on Durkheim and thus can't comment
> on the nuances of his arguments.
>
> I think I probably do regard the autopoietic as something of a principle
> (not a force). I agree it is descriptive, but it is descriptive of processes
> and interactions. It is not agency but it is a way of conceptualising it. I
> don't want to get into a discussion of how we represent things (the
> autopoietic and that it describes) as that leads us into a semantic trap
> where we are no longer considering our original focus on creativity as
> social ontology.
>
> Discussing the will opens a can of worms. I try to avoid such a term, even
> if that exclusion isn't rigorous.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk  simon at littlepig.org.uk
> Skype: simonbiggsuk
> http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
>
> Research Professor  edinburgh college of art
> http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice
> http://www.elmcip.net/
> Centre for Film, Performance and Media Arts
> http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/film-performance-media-arts
>
>
>   
>> From: James Leach <james.leach at abdn.ac.uk>
>> Reply-To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
>> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:01:41 +0100
>> To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] empyre Digest, Vol 68, Issue 10 / is there a will to
>> create / the social beyond the mechanisim?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 Jul 2010, at 10:47, Simon Biggs wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> As I suggested in my earlier post today, which Kriss picked up on, I am
>>> looking at agency and creativity from an autopoietic point of view. I am not
>>> seeking to situate agency in the individual but in the collective and,
>>> specifically, in the in-between. This could be considered a "gathering",
>>> although this suggests a sense of common purpose, individuals recognising
>>> they can enhance their capacity to act, to bring themselves and the world
>>> into being, through collective action. That isn't what I am trying to get
>>> at. Of course, I am wearing my artists hat when I suggest this and am not
>>> really equipped to defend what is possibly an indefensible position.
>>> Nevertheless, I think it is an interesting line of thought.
>>>       
>> Yes, this is an interesting line, but the question would become what you could
>> mean by agency, if it is an emergent property of interactions, and thus
>> located outside individual actors, other than a kind of 'social force' - one
>> that is not within any one person's control, authorship, and therefore, not
>> really easily covered by 'agency' as it is commonly understood.
>> I think you might be veering towards some notion of the autopoietic as itself
>> as kind of force, the momentum of which bestows form on those those things and
>> persons (interactors in your terms I think) that partake of it?
>> But is there a danger here of mixing a descriptive term with a thing that does
>> something? What we call autopoeisis is not a force or thing at all, but a way
>> of describing the way certain elements of relationships condition one another
>> in an ongoing process that is not 'autopoeisis', but people living human
>> lives. The 'danger' (well, the line it might take us down) of thinking of 'it'
>> as 'something' is that we are not too far here from a much older notion of
>> social emergence - Durkheimian notions of the superorganic, (society is sui
>> generis, and arises from but then determines social interaction). Society for
>> Durkheim certainly did have agency.
>>
>> James
>>
>> ___________________________________
>> Professor James Leach
>> Head of Department, Anthropology
>> School of Social Science
>> Edward Wright Building,
>> University of Aberdeen,
>> Aberdeen AB24 3QY
>> UK
>>
>> T:  + 44 (0)1224 274354
>> E: james.leach at abdn.ac.uk
>> W: www.jamesleach.net
>> Skype/ichat: jamieleach2
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Research Professor  edinburgh college of art
>>> http://www.eca.ac.uk/
>>> Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
>>> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>>> Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice
>>> http://www.elmcip.net/
>>> Centre for Film, Performance and Media Arts
>>> http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/film-performance-media-arts
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> From: James Leach <james.leach at abdn.ac.uk>
>>>> Reply-To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:02:33 +0100
>>>> To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
>>>> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] empyre Digest, Vol 68, Issue 10 / is there a will to
>>>> create / the social beyond the mechanisim?
>>>>
>>>> But Simon, you also are keen to explore the emergent possibility, to
>>>> actually
>>>> look at what is made visible in emerging digital networked forms that is not
>>>> visible in previous ways of working?
>>>>
>>>> What is being gathered? what are the constraints on those gatherings? and
>>>> what
>>>> is created through them - ie, what changes because of them?
>>>>         
>>>
>>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number
>>> SC009201
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>>>       
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> empyre forum
>> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
>> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>>     
>
>
>
> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number SC009201
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>
>   

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