[-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
christopher sullivan
csulli at saic.edu
Wed Mar 3 05:16:37 EST 2010
I agree that the moment of interchange is the defining moment, but I do not go
with the idea that the writer and the reader are 50 50 in the interchange.
I actually like being overwhelmed by art, It is what feels best to me. I am not
quibbling, I just feel different, I like work made by really smart complex
people, and I do not have a need to democratize the giver and receiver.
for instance I am not frustrated when watching football, that I am not actually
running the ball, I am truly engaged as an observer, and as a reader, watcher,
but I feel connection but not an even one. Animation is very particular like
this, because it is such a place of amazing craft.
I cannot through a football 60 yards, that is OK.
of course diversity in thought is important. Chris
Quoting Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>:
> I am quite a fan of Latour¹s formulation of expanded agency and Ingold¹s
> reading of the Deleuzian idea of becoming, where creation is located in the
> process of exchange that occurs at the moment the art work comes into being.
> This assumes that the art work only comes into being when it is received,
> not when it is produced (although these things can be the same thing they
> have to be the same thing) and that the work is to be found not in the
> artefact but in its exchange. The reader and writer only come into being at
> this moment too. In this view there is little reason to quibble over who did
> what. The reader and the writer are both implicated in the outcome. This was
> Derrida¹s point. I do not find this a dry proposition at all quite the
> opposite. It is a field of complex interplays that is rich in nuance,
> contradiction, conflict and synergy. Random is just another word for complex
> ;)
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
>
> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice
> http://www.elmcip.net/
>
>
>
> From: christopher sullivan <csulli at saic.edu>
> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:56:46 -0600
> To: Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>
> Cc: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time
> ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
>
>
> Hi Simon, I agree that Patrick Smith is light in some ways, and to be
> honest, I
> show him in class as a classical animator making independent work. But it is
> interesting that you pick the one you do not like, as opposed to the one you
> did. Have not seen Michael Joaquin Grey, will check him out. I agree with
> your
> descriptions of narrative. For me it is not really that black and white.
> I still feel that some of the New Media Rules," Non-linear animation would
> require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to
> user
> activity." implies that there is truth in chaos, and control is in some ways
> problematic. user activity often manifests itself as the narrative of the
> art
> opening, which is to me a pretty dry interface. I think that the idea of
> interactivity by an unblindfolded collaborator engaged in the content of the
> work, and on board with the works purpose, and someone with creative
> strengths,
> has a lot more potential than leaning towards, the unknowing, random
> outsider.
> I say this because the latter his been my most common model with interactive
> digital media. chris.
>
>
> Quoting Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>:
>
> > Coming from digital arts rather than animation I probably have a stricter
> > definition of non-linearity. What you are calling non-linearity I would
> call
> > complex or multi-layered narrative or perhaps open narrative.
> Non-narrative
> > would have no narrative at all, as in no plot, no story. This could be
> > applied to abstract work, but even then there is usually some sort of
> > logical development which can still be considered a narrative.
> > Non-linearity, to me, involves things like coding, rapid access media,
> > heuristics, etc. Conventional animation is linear as it is a single data
> > stream that does not materially change. Non-linear animation would require
> > multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user
> > activity. This is what I make but I don¹t consider it animation, although
> it
> > uses many of its techniques.
> >
> > Did I like the work? I have been familiar with these makers for a long
> time.
> > I use to attend and present at Siggraph, back in the 1980¹s, along with
> > people like Duesing, Kawaguchi, Lasseter and others. My interest then was
> > not animation but experimental digital art. However, at that time if you
> > were into computers and creative practice then you tended to get tossed
> into
> > the same box, even if your creative intent was profoundly different. I
> > didn¹t warm to Patrick Smith¹s work it is conventional animation but
> with
> > a hint of street-cred thrown in, some Keith Haring and Jean Dubuffet. This
> > is evident in the paintings on his website too. Michael Joaquin Grey¹s
> work
> > is more to my taste. Some of it reminded me of the early Vasulka¹s.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> > Simon Biggs
> >
> > s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
> > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice
> > http://www.elmcip.net/
> >
> >
> >
> > From: christopher sullivan <csulli at saic.edu>
> > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:39:04 -0600
> > To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>, Simon Biggs
> > <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>
> > Cc: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time
> > ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
> >
> > Hi Simon, perhaps there are degrees of narrative linearity, for me there
> > does
> > not have to be a literal audience manipulation, or chance operation to
> > create
> > experiments in narrative, it is done in literature all the time.
> > taking a film like Jim Duesings Tender bodies, or Nancy Andrews strange
> > work,
> > or lewis klahr, there is I think very interesting stuff going on.
> > did you like the work you saw? that is all that maters for me. Chris
> >
> >
> > Quoting Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>:
> >
> > > I think I am little confused about what non-linear means in this
> context.
> > I
> > > assume it to mean a time based artefact that can exist as a number of
> > > distinct material timelines. That is, the timeline bifurcates in various
> > > ways that allow the viewer to experience distinctly different aspects of
> > the
> > > work. In my experience there are only two ways to do this. One is to use
> a
> > > hypermedia approach, such as the World Wide Web is predicated upon,
> which
> > > allows you to select from multiple routes through a number of
> > possibilities.
> > > The other is to use generative techniques, where the viewer¹s
> interaction
> > > with the artefact causes it to re-author itself in real-time, the
> outcome
> > > most likely being a novel instance of the work that only that viewer
> will
> > > ever experience (this approach is more common in simulation based
> computer
> > > games). I have googled some of the names Chris suggested but so far as I
> > > could see they are making traditional linear animations. Am I missing
> > > something?
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Simon
> > >
> > >
> > > Simon Biggs
> > >
> > > s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> > > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> > > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
> > > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in
> Practice
> > > http://www.elmcip.net/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Eileen Reynolds <eyelene01 at hotmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:02:57 -0700
> > > To: <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>, <futurenatural at blueyonder.co.uk>
> > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long
> time
> > > ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
> > >
> > > Hi Chris. Thanks for the list of names. I had not heard of some who I
> > > really ought to have known. Rose bond. wonderful. Intra Muros is
> superb.
> > I
> > > recently attended the introduction master class given by Patrick Smith
> in
> > > Singapore and was impressed by Drink and Puppet. The transformation is
> > quite
> > > nice. True, there is an endless supply of animated non-linear shorts out
> > > there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lately I've been absorbed in pre cinema tech and toys and also
> pixilation.
> > > In my opinion the visual power of such simple in camera effects can¹t be
> > > beat. Yay Melies. Yeah and the tilt shift time lapse you mentioned
> > the
> > > other day was another fine example of using limited technology, an older
> > > technique, but bringing it one step further into video and creating
> > > something fresh. Also I find that the use of physical space in the
> > process
> > > of animation is becoming more extravagant... as in stop motion in the
> > urban
> > > space (Muto by Blu), or staging larger productions like that sony
> bravia
> > > clay bunny commercial or more involved pixilations like the video Oren
> > Lavie
> > > - Her Morning Elegance. The physical act of creation comes to the
> > > forefront and in a way makes the animated short that much more
> impressive.
> > > Perhaps the use of space is a reaction against the world of CG
> animation,
> > > which can be quite sedentary. Or perhaps it's just fun. Some random and
> > > unrelated films/people I appreciate right now are Kihachiro Kawamoto,
> > Javan
> > > Ivey and his stratastencils, and Separation by Robert Morgan. Have a
> good
> > > day. Cheers. Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:05:06 -0600
> > > > From: csulli at saic.edu
> > > > To: empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au; futurenatural at blueyonder.co.uk
> > > > CC: empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long
> > time
> > > ago:
> > > interpreting datasets, etc)
> > > >
> > > > Hi Richard, there are plenty of non-linear narrative animations, not
> too
> > > many
> > > > feature ones, but then there are not all that many feature length
> > > animations.
> > > > here are a few animators, off the top of my head, and the Quay's as
> > well;
> > > janie
> > > > Gieser. Lewis Klahr, Nancu Andrews, me Chris Sullivan, Jim Trainor,
> > Simon
> > > > Pummel, Amy Kravitze, Karen Yasinsky, Lilli Carre, Patrick Smith, Don
> > > > Hertzfeld, Rose Bond, Joshua Mosely, Jim Duesing, Pritt Parn, Brent
> > Green,
> > > > Piotr Dumala, and check out the nice work funded by the organization,
> > > Animate
> > > > Projects, great british wonders. have a good night. Chris.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Richard Wright <futurenatural at blueyonder.co.uk>:
> > > >
> > > > > I always liked the quality in the Quay films where time seems to
> lose
> > > > > all its reference points. Those shots of dust settling or shadows
> > > > > dancing where you are no longer sure whether you are watching in
> > > > > "realtime" or over the course of hundreds of years.
> > > > >
> > > > > This also made me wonder why certain kinds of narrative and time are
> > > > > almost never used in animation. For instance, why are there no non-
> > > > > linear narrative animations? They are not that uncommon in live
> > > > > action films - I am thinking of Memento that goes backwards in story
> > > > > time (with one b/w stream going forwards), Amores Perros that jumps
> > > > > repeatedly backwards and forwards, The Hours with its parallel
> > > > > storylines running in different historical times periods. The only
> > > > > example of an animated film that has anything like these kinds of
> > > > > narrative structure is Waltz with Bashir with its persistent
> > > > > flashbacks. And that was made by a live action director.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if this has something to do with the way that animators
> > > > > work, concentrating as they do on building up a sequence of actions
> > > > > bit by bit, are they generally less directed towards the larger
> > > > > narrative structures of time? By focusing on the duration of the
> > > > > immediate event, is it as though they assume a sort of "short term
> > > > > memory"?
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard
> > > > >
> > > > > On 25 Feb 2010, at 03:34, T Goodeve wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello everyone:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry I¹ve been so lax as a discussant-generator but here I am
> with
> > > > > > some thoughts and reflections. If it¹s okay just an aside first:
> > > > > > off the top of my fingertips<many of you make stuff you love and
> > > > > > live for, also write about with great passion, and the animated
> > > > > > worldscape is still and ever will be one of magic and wonder I
> hope
> > > > > > (you have the romantic here), i.e., endless visual and aural
> > > > > > reimagings via its ability, or definition, whether anlogue or
> > > > > > digital, to do anything and everything within and beyond the
> > > > > > spacetime continuum. But sometimes I miss the basic humor, wonder,
> > > > > > and sheer ³wow² of the simplicity of animation. I mentioned in a
> > > > > > post. The blank page and the dot. We lose track, myself included,
> > > > > > analyzing the life out of things sometimes and to do this with
> > > > > > animation seems particularly perverse. I realize I set myself up
> > > > > > for a bit of ridicule here but alas, someone has to speak up for
> > > > > > the puppet doll in Street of Crocodiles who cradles the bare light
> > > > > > bulb baby in its arm and brings it back to life with light, or the
> > > > > > frayed and earnest bunny who does his best to keep up with the
> > > > > > spinning demented ping pong balls and a pair of disembodied knee
> > > > > > socks and slippers moving up and down on tip toes in the Quays
> ³Are
> > > > > > We Still Married² <up and down, up and down. I think Christopher
> > > > > > Sullivan was trying to get at this but not everyone is out to do
> > > > > > what he does nor interested in the way I am or the Quays or for
> > > > > > that matter, those who use it for visualization, but depending on
> > > > > > why you do what you do we are here to discuss the breakthrough
> > > > > > insights of theory and technology and animation, but it¹s just
> > > > > > sometimes I¹ve felt we¹ve let the technology get away with doing
> > > > > > too much of the talking, not that it doesn¹t have a lot to say.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But a more hardy, if overly general, topic is temporality and
> time,
> > > > > > now-time vs say the way cinema¹s capturing, sculpting, control of
> > > > > > time was such a huge part of its magic. Siegfried Kracauer
> describe
> > > > > > in an essay how powerful just ³having² the wind in the trees <a
> > > > > > moment< captured on film is for him. How different from one of my
> > > > > > students when I showed some film, perhaps Tarkovsky,² Why does he
> > > > > > keep leaving the camera on the trees so long?² Students of cinema
> > > > > > are different. We know this: ADD and short digitized attention
> > > > > > spans. But how do you see this in your worlds of animation either
> > > > > > in terms of resistance or something emerging that is part of this.
> > > > > > One thing I thought was very relevant was the post of the shift
> > > > > > tilt which is amazing and disturbing in this respect. Lots to say
> > > > > > about it: not only the time lapse but the way the world is
> > > > > > miniaturized. Here the real profilmic world is literally made into
> > > > > > an stop motion animated ³cartoon². One could talk about the Quays
> > > > > > work and time both in terms of period and affect; rhythm and
> > > > > > texture of their worlds (In Absentia, the film they made with
> > > > > > Stockhausen, is in some ways about light/time, metaphorically
> > > > > > written all at once over and over (the character n the film) hence
> > > > > > no time. Endless time. Speed of lightS .) But I do not know what
> > > > > > people have seen. I am more interested in hearing you all discuss
> > > > > > temporality and animation ³today²<both theoretically and examples.
> > > > > > These discussions are so energetic. They amaze me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Thyrza
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:39 AM, christopher sullivan
> > > > > > <csulli at saic.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Richard, I am the guy that wants animations about love, hate,
> > > > > > birth, sex, and
> > > > > > death.(not necessarily in that order)
> > > > > > your rules of engagement leave me a little cold. why would this be
> > > > > > a goal?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "greatest possible distance between
> > > > > > human senses and computer code that is achievable through the
> > > > > > simplest material means"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > what part of the human condition would make this a mandate?
> > > > > > why would this be effective, or rather effective at doing what?
> > > > > > I know I am being a little aggressive here, but this is coming
> from
> > > > > > someone who does not think Data means anything, nor does emulsion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > chris.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Christopher Sullivan
> > > > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> > > > School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> > > > 112 so michigan
> > > > Chicago Ill 60603
> > > > csulli at saic.edu
> > > > 312-345-3802
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > empyre forum
> > > > empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >
> > >
> > > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
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> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > empyre forum
> > > empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >
> > >
> > > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland,
> number
> > > SC009201
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Christopher Sullivan
> > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> > School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> > 112 so michigan
> > Chicago Ill 60603
> > csulli at saic.edu
> > 312-345-3802
> >
> >
> > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number
> > SC009201
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Christopher Sullivan
> Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> 112 so michigan
> Chicago Ill 60603
> csulli at saic.edu
> 312-345-3802
>
>
> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number
> SC009201
>
>
>
Christopher Sullivan
Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
School of the Art Institute of Chicago
112 so michigan
Chicago Ill 60603
csulli at saic.edu
312-345-3802
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