[-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
Tgoodeve
tgoodeve at gmail.com
Fri Mar 5 03:36:04 EST 2010
Huh...
On a bus to school along 23rrd
Just dipped in
Layout
Magic
Animation
Science
Shirt one
I'm with chris on the magic one -- and with
"science"( if we're going to cast it in a word)
With Michael grey and Donna Haraway
But
I am
On
My
iPhone
( cop out)
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2010, at 4:06 AM, "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk> wrote:
> I agree with Latour (as quoted by Richard). There is no magic.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
>
> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in
> Practice http://www.elmcip.net/
>
>
> From: christopher sullivan <csulli at saic.edu>
> Reply-To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 21:29:35 -0600
> To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long
> time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
>
>
> Again Simon you are not going to the right restaurant.
> There is magic out there. Chris.
>
> Quoting Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>:
>
> > I didn’t say 50/50. Sometimes somebody gives more. One hopes it is
> the
> > artist, but it isn’t always the case. In fact, most of the time I
> get the
> > feeling I am giving more than I am receiving when it comes to
> popular media.
> >
> > Simon Biggs
> >
> > s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
> > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in
> Practice
> > http://www.elmcip.net/
> >
> >
> >
> > From: christopher sullivan <csulli at saic.edu>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:16:37 -0600
> > To: Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>
> > Cc: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a
> long time
> > ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
> >
> >
> > I agree that the moment of interchange is the defining moment, but
> I do not
> > go
> > with the idea that the writer and the reader are 50 50 in the
> interchange.
> > I actually like being overwhelmed by art, It is what feels best to
> me. I am
> > not
> > quibbling, I just feel different, I like work made by really smart
> complex
> > people, and I do not have a need to democratize the giver and
> receiver.
> > for instance I am not frustrated when watching football, that I am
> not
> > actually
> > running the ball, I am truly engaged as an observer, and as a
> reader,
> > watcher,
> > but I feel connection but not an even one. Animation is very
> particular like
> > this, because it is such a place of amazing craft.
> > I cannot through a football 60 yards, that is OK.
> > of course diversity in thought is important. Chris
> >
> >
> > Quoting Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>:
> >
> > > I am quite a fan of Latour’s formulation of expanded agency and
> Ingold’s
> > > reading of the Deleuzian idea of becoming, where creation is
> located in
> > the
> > > process of exchange that occurs at the moment the art work comes
> into
> > being.
> > > This assumes that the art work only comes into being when it is
> received,
> > > not when it is produced (although these things can be the same
> thing –
> > they
> > > have to be the same thing) and that the work is to be found not
> in the
> > > artefact but in its exchange. The reader and writer only come
> into being
> > at
> > > this moment too. In this view there is little reason to quibble
> over who
> > did
> > > what. The reader and the writer are both implicated in the
> outcome. This
> > was
> > > Derrida’s point. I do not find this a dry proposition at all
> – quite the
> > > opposite. It is a field of complex interplays that is rich in
> nuance,
> > > contradiction, conflict and synergy. Random is just another word
> for
> > complex
> > > ;)
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Simon
> > >
> > >
> > > Simon Biggs
> > >
> > > s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> > > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://
> www.eca.ac.uk/
> > > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative
> Environments
> > > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in
> Practice
> > > http://www.elmcip.net/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: christopher sullivan <csulli at saic.edu>
> > > Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:56:46 -0600
> > > To: Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>
> > > Cc: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a
> long time
> > > ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Simon, I agree that Patrick Smith is light in some ways, and
> to be
> > > honest, I
> > > show him in class as a classical animator making independent
> work. But it
> > is
> > > interesting that you pick the one you do not like, as opposed to
> the one
> > you
> > > did. Have not seen Michael Joaquin Grey, will check him out. I
> agree with
> > > your
> > > descriptions of narrative. For me it is not really that black
> and white.
> > > I still feel that some of the New Media Rules," Non-linear
> animation would
> > > require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in
> response
> > to
> > > user
> > > activity." implies that there is truth in chaos, and control is
> in some
> > ways
> > > problematic. user activity often manifests itself as the
> narrative of the
> > > art
> > > opening, which is to me a pretty dry interface. I think that the
> idea of
> > > interactivity by an unblindfolded collaborator engaged in the
> content of
> > the
> > > work, and on board with the works purpose, and someone with
> creative
> > > strengths,
> > > has a lot more potential than leaning towards, the unknowing,
> random
> > > outsider.
> > > I say this because the latter his been my most common model with
> > interactive
> > > digital media. chris.
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>:
> > >
> > > > Coming from digital arts rather than animation I probably have a
> > stricter
> > > > definition of non-linearity. What you are calling non-
> linearity I would
> > > call
> > > > complex or multi-layered narrative or perhaps open narrative.
> > > Non-narrative
> > > > would have no narrative at all, as in no plot, no story. This
> could be
> > > > applied to abstract work, but even then there is usually some
> sort of
> > > > logical development which can still be considered a narrative.
> > > > Non-linearity, to me, involves things like coding, rapid
> access media,
> > > > heuristics, etc. Conventional animation is linear as it is a
> single data
> > > > stream that does not materially change. Non-linear animation
> would
> > require
> > > > multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in
> response to user
> > > > activity. This is what I make but I don’t consider it animatio
> n,
> > although
> > > it
> > > > uses many of its techniques.
> > > >
> > > > Did I like the work? I have been familiar with these makers
> for a long
> > > time.
> > > > I use to attend and present at Siggraph, back in the 1980’s, a
> long with
> > > > people like Duesing, Kawaguchi, Lasseter and others. My
> interest then
> > was
> > > > not animation but experimental digital art. However, at that
> time if you
> > > > were into computers and creative practice then you tended to
> get tossed
> > > into
> > > > the same box, even if your creative intent was profoundly
> different. I
> > > > didn’t warm to Patrick Smith’s work – it is conventional
> animation but
> > > with
> > > > a hint of street-cred thrown in, some Keith Haring and Jean
> Dubuffet.
> > This
> > > > is evident in the paintings on his website too. Michael
> Joaquin Grey’s
> > > work
> > > > is more to my taste. Some of it reminded me of the early
> Vasulka’s.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Simon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Simon Biggs
> > > >
> > > > s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > > > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> > > > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> > > > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative
> Environments
> > > > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > > > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in
> > Practice
> > > > http://www.elmcip.net/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: christopher sullivan <csulli at saic.edu>
> > > > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:39:04 -0600
> > > > To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>, Simon
> Biggs
> > > > <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>
> > > > Cc: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was,
> a long
> > time
> > > > ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
> > > >
> > > > Hi Simon, perhaps there are degrees of narrative linearity,
> for me there
> > > > does
> > > > not have to be a literal audience manipulation, or chance
> operation to
> > > > create
> > > > experiments in narrative, it is done in literature all the time.
> > > > taking a film like Jim Duesings Tender bodies, or Nancy
> Andrews strange
> > > > work,
> > > > or lewis klahr, there is I think very interesting stuff going
> on.
> > > > did you like the work you saw? that is all that maters for me.
> Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Simon Biggs <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk>:
> > > >
> > > > > I think I am little confused about what non-linear means in
> this
> > > context.
> > > > I
> > > > > assume it to mean a time based artefact that can exist as a
> number of
> > > > > distinct material timelines. That is, the timeline
> bifurcates in
> > various
> > > > > ways that allow the viewer to experience distinctly
> different aspects
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > work. In my experience there are only two ways to do this.
> One is to
> > use
> > > a
> > > > > hypermedia approach, such as the World Wide Web is
> predicated upon,
> > > which
> > > > > allows you to select from multiple routes through a number of
> > > > possibilities.
> > > > > The other is to use generative techniques, where the viewer
> ’s
> > > interaction
> > > > > with the artefact causes it to re-author itself in real-
> time, the
> > > outcome
> > > > > most likely being a novel instance of the work that only
> that viewer
> > > will
> > > > > ever experience (this approach is more common in simulation
> based
> > > computer
> > > > > games). I have googled some of the names Chris suggested but
> so far as
> > I
> > > > > could see they are making traditional linear animations. Am
> I missing
> > > > > something?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > Simon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Simon Biggs
> > > > >
> > > > > s.biggs at eca.ac.uk simon at littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > > > > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> > > > > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/
> > > > > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative
> Environments
> > > > > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > > > > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and
> Innovation in
> > > Practice
> > > > > http://www.elmcip.net/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Eileen Reynolds <eyelene01 at hotmail.com>
> > > > > Reply-To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:02:57 -0700
> > > > > To: <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>, <futurenatural at blueyonder.co.uk
> >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory
> (was, a long
> > > time
> > > > > ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Chris. Thanks for the list of names. I had not heard of
> some who I
> > > > > really ought to have known. Rose bond. wonderful. Intra
> Muros is
> > > superb.
> > > > I
> > > > > recently attended the introduction master class given by
> Patrick Smith
> > > in
> > > > > Singapore and was impressed by Drink and Puppet. The
> transformation is
> > > > quite
> > > > > nice. True, there is an endless supply of animated non-
> linear shorts
> > out
> > > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lately I've been absorbed in pre cinema tech and toys and also
> > > pixilation.
> > > > > In my opinion the visual power of such simple in camera
> effects can’t
> > be
> > > > > beat. Yay Melies. Yeah – and the tilt shift time lapse y
> ou
> > mentioned
> > > > the
> > > > > other day was another fine example of using limited
> technology, an
> > older
> > > > > technique, but bringing it one step further into video and
> creating
> > > > > something fresh. Also I find that the use of physical space
> in the
> > > > process
> > > > > of animation is becoming more extravagant... as in stop
> motion in the
> > > > urban
> > > > > space (Muto by Blu), or staging larger productions like
> that sony
> > > bravia
> > > > > clay bunny commercial or more involved pixilations like the
> video Oren
> > > > Lavie
> > > > > - Her Morning Elegance. The physical act of creation comes
> to the
> > > > > forefront and in a way makes the animated short that much more
> > > impressive.
> > > > > Perhaps the use of space is a reaction against the world of CG
> > > animation,
> > > > > which can be quite sedentary. Or perhaps it's just fun.
> Some random
> > and
> > > > > unrelated films/people I appreciate right now are Kihachiro
> Kawamoto,
> > > > Javan
> > > > > Ivey and his stratastencils, and Separation by Robert
> Morgan. Have a
> > > good
> > > > > day. Cheers. Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:05:06 -0600
> > > > > > From: csulli at saic.edu
> > > > > > To: empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au; futurenatural at blueyonder.co.uk
> > > > > > CC: empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory
> (was, a long
> > > > time
> > > > > ago:
> > > > > interpreting datasets, etc)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Richard, there are plenty of non-linear narrative
> animations, not
> > > too
> > > > > many
> > > > > > feature ones, but then there are not all that many feature
> length
> > > > > animations.
> > > > > > here are a few animators, off the top of my head, and the
> Quay's as
> > > > well;
> > > > > janie
> > > > > > Gieser. Lewis Klahr, Nancu Andrews, me Chris Sullivan, Jim
> Trainor,
> > > > Simon
> > > > > > Pummel, Amy Kravitze, Karen Yasinsky, Lilli Carre, Patrick
> Smith,
> > Don
> > > > > > Hertzfeld, Rose Bond, Joshua Mosely, Jim Duesing, Pritt
> Parn, Brent
> > > > Green,
> > > > > > Piotr Dumala, and check out the nice work funded by the
> > organization,
> > > > > Animate
> > > > > > Projects, great british wonders. have a good night. Chris.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Quoting Richard Wright <futurenatural at blueyonder.co.uk>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I always liked the quality in the Quay films where time
> seems to
> > > lose
> > > > > > > all its reference points. Those shots of dust settling
> or shadows
> > > > > > > dancing where you are no longer sure whether you are
> watching in
> > > > > > > "realtime" or over the course of hundreds of years.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This also made me wonder why certain kinds of narrative
> and time
> > are
> > > > > > > almost never used in animation. For instance, why are
> there no
> > non-
> > > > > > > linear narrative animations? They are not that uncommon
> in live
> > > > > > > action films - I am thinking of Memento that goes
> backwards in
> > story
> > > > > > > time (with one b/w stream going forwards), Amores Perros
> that
> > jumps
> > > > > > > repeatedly backwards and forwards, The Hours with its
> parallel
> > > > > > > storylines running in different historical times
> periods. The only
> > > > > > > example of an animated film that has anything like these
> kinds of
> > > > > > > narrative structure is Waltz with Bashir with its
> persistent
> > > > > > > flashbacks. And that was made by a live action director.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I wonder if this has something to do with the way that
> animators
> > > > > > > work, concentrating as they do on building up a sequence
> of
> > actions
> > > > > > > bit by bit, are they generally less directed towards the
> larger
> > > > > > > narrative structures of time? By focusing on the
> duration of the
> > > > > > > immediate event, is it as though they assume a sort of
> "short term
> > > > > > > memory"?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 25 Feb 2010, at 03:34, T Goodeve wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello everyone:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sorry I’ve been so lax as a discussant-generator but h
> ere I am
> > > with
> > > > > > > > some thoughts and reflections. If it’s okay just an as
> ide first:
> > > > > > > > off the top of my fingertips<many of you make stuff
> you love and
> > > > > > > > live for, also write about with great passion, and the
> animated
> > > > > > > > worldscape is still and ever will be one of magic and
> wonder I
> > > hope
> > > > > > > > (you have the romantic here), i.e., endless visual and
> aural
> > > > > > > > reimagings via its ability, or definition, whether
> anlogue or
> > > > > > > > digital, to do anything and everything within and
> beyond the
> > > > > > > > spacetime continuum. But sometimes I miss the basic
> humor,
> > wonder,
> > > > > > > > and sheer “wow” of the simplicity of animation. I
> mentioned in a
> > > > > > > > post. The blank page and the dot. We lose track, myself
> > included,
> > > > > > > > analyzing the life out of things sometimes and to do
> this with
> > > > > > > > animation seems particularly perverse. I realize I set
> myself up
> > > > > > > > for a bit of ridicule here but alas, someone has to
> speak up for
> > > > > > > > the puppet doll in Street of Crocodiles who cradles
> the bare
> > light
> > > > > > > > bulb baby in its arm and brings it back to life with
> light, or
> > the
> > > > > > > > frayed and earnest bunny who does his best to keep up
> with the
> > > > > > > > spinning demented ping pong balls and a pair of
> disembodied knee
> > > > > > > > socks and slippers moving up and down on tip toes in
> the Quays
> > > “Are
> > > > > > > > We Still Married” <up and down, up and down. I think C
> hristopher
> > > > > > > > Sullivan was trying to get at this but not everyone is
> out to do
> > > > > > > > what he does nor interested in the way I am or the
> Quays or for
> > > > > > > > that matter, those who use it for visualization, but
> depending
> > on
> > > > > > > > why you do what you do we are here to discuss the
> breakthrough
> > > > > > > > insights of theory and technology and animation, but i
> t’s just
> > > > > > > > sometimes I’ve felt we’ve let the technology get
> away with doing
> > > > > > > > too much of the talking, not that it doesn’t have a lo
> t to say.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But a more hardy, if overly general, topic is
> temporality and
> > > time,
> > > > > > > > now-time vs say the way cinema’s capturing, sculpting,
> control
> > of
> > > > > > > > time was such a huge part of its magic. Siegfried
> Kracauer
> > > describe
> > > > > > > > in an essay how powerful just “having” the wind in
> the trees <a
> > > > > > > > moment< captured on film is for him. How different
> from one of
> > my
> > > > > > > > students when I showed some film, perhaps Tarkovsky,”
> Why does
> > he
> > > > > > > > keep leaving the camera on the trees so long?” Student
> s of
> > cinema
> > > > > > > > are different. We know this: ADD and short digitized
> attention
> > > > > > > > spans. But how do you see this in your worlds of
> animation
> > either
> > > > > > > > in terms of resistance or something emerging that is
> part of
> > this.
> > > > > > > > One thing I thought was very relevant was the post of
> the shift
> > > > > > > > tilt which is amazing and disturbing in this respect.
> Lots to
> > say
> > > > > > > > about it: not only the time lapse but the way the
> world is
> > > > > > > > miniaturized. Here the real profilmic world is
> literally made
> > into
> > > > > > > > an stop motion animated “cartoon”. One could talk
> about the
> > Quays
> > > > > > > > work and time – both in terms of period and affect; rh
> ythm and
> > > > > > > > texture of their worlds (In Absentia, the film they
> made with
> > > > > > > > Stockhausen, is in some ways about light/time,
> metaphorically
> > > > > > > > written all at once over and over (the character n the
> film)
> > hence
> > > > > > > > no time. Endless time. Speed of lightS .) But I do
> not know
> > what
> > > > > > > > people have seen. I am more interested in hearing you
> all
> > discuss
> > > > > > > > temporality and animation “today”<both
> theoretically and
> > examples.
> > > > > > > > These discussions are so energetic. They amaze me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks, Thyrza
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:39 AM, christopher sullivan
> > > > > > > > <csulli at saic.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi Richard, I am the guy that wants animations about
> love, hate,
> > > > > > > > birth, sex, and
> > > > > > > > death.(not necessarily in that order)
> > > > > > > > your rules of engagement leave me a little cold. why
> would this
> > be
> > > > > > > > a goal?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "greatest possible distance between
> > > > > > > > human senses and computer code that is achievable
> through the
> > > > > > > > simplest material means"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > what part of the human condition would make this a
> mandate?
> > > > > > > > why would this be effective, or rather effective at
> doing what?
> > > > > > > > I know I am being a little aggressive here, but this
> is coming
> > > from
> > > > > > > > someone who does not think Data means anything, nor does
> > emulsion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > chris.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Christopher Sullivan
> > > > > > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> > > > > > School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> > > > > > 112 so michigan
> > > > > > Chicago Ill 60603
> > > > > > csulli at saic.edu
> > > > > > 312-345-3802
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > empyre forum
> > > > > > empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get
> it now.
> > > > > <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/>
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > empyre forum
> > > > > empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in
> Scotland,
> > > number
> > > > > SC009201
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Christopher Sullivan
> > > > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> > > > School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> > > > 112 so michigan
> > > > Chicago Ill 60603
> > > > csulli at saic.edu
> > > > 312-345-3802
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in
> Scotland,
> > number
> > > > SC009201
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Christopher Sullivan
> > > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> > > School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> > > 112 so michigan
> > > Chicago Ill 60603
> > > csulli at saic.edu
> > > 312-345-3802
> > >
> > >
> > > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in
> Scotland, number
> > > SC009201
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Christopher Sullivan
> > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> > School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> > 112 so michigan
> > Chicago Ill 60603
> > csulli at saic.edu
> > 312-345-3802
> >
> >
> > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in
> Scotland, number
> > SC009201
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Christopher Sullivan
> Dept. of Film/Video/New Media
> School of the Art Institute of Chicago
> 112 so michigan
> Chicago Ill 60603
> csulli at saic.edu
> 312-345-3802
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>
> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland,
> number SC009201
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
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