[-empyre-] aslemeur, experimental 3D image, Moscow, July 2015

Sun Jul 19 09:01:08 AEST 2015

Hello everybody,
I enjoyed very much the posts so far and I would like to contribute with a brief comment on what was discussed the other day about error, mistake, accident and so on.
In my opinion, the similarities between human error and technological / software error has to do with the way we design the role and the purpose of errors. Human error is nowadays preached as a sign of our vulnerability, our fallible nature, etc, and is even desirable in most of the creative areas we might refer to (and art is one of them, perfection being looked at as impossible; consider for example the myth of the chef d'oeuvre, the trace of one's hand on the work - like Horea mentioned, etc).  Whereas technology could have this capacity of perfection, but is always in a way brought back to the human standard (of potentially becoming something else, of potentially resulting in an unexpected outcome), to an imitation of the human flaw, like in the case of the glitch aesthetics. In the article "Error, the Unforeseen, and the Emergent. The Error and Interactive Media Art", Tim Barker analyzes an interesting example of the condition of error in the post-digital age: "The cultural role that Manovich ascribes to software becomes elucidated in Dimitre Lima, Iman Morandi, and Ant Scott’s Glitchbrowser. Glitchbrowser is an alternative to the traditional model of a web browser. This browser, rather than attempting to assist user navigation of the internet, creates errors when displaying the pages that it accesses. The images of any page accessed by Glitchbrowser are distorted or glitched through colour saturation and abstraction from their original composition. In this work, following Manovich’s cultural communication model, the software that intervenes between sender and receiver alters the content of the message. Thus in Glitchbrowser, the artists remind us that the information we receive is largely reconstituted by the system it travels through. In a sense the machine reveals itself, rather than creating the illusion of a transparent interface to information. In the application of Glitchbrowser the user witnesses the way that messages are transmitted and altered by the interface. Here, the machine reminds the user of its existence (Manovich, The Language of New Media 206)."
The point of designing error, following the arguments above - and I will come back to them - is to negotiate different and unexpected outcomes, to leave the circuits open and to design systems that respond to human mistakes and also that generate new and unexpected meanings. Perhaps a perfect system is a system that leaves itself open to all human errors...or to put it differently an "erring" or "emotional" machine may be the only functional system in fact since it's the only one "feeding" our need for the unforeseen.

Best,
Diana

________________________________
From: Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
To: soft_skinned_space <empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au> 
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [-empyre-] aslemeur, experimental 3D image, Moscow, July 2015

"Couldn't the word accident be used instead of "involuntary" which seems 
to travel closely with its antonym voluntary? Accidents happen with the 
best of planning but as AS noted below, sometimes artists choose to keep the accident and integrate it. Accidents can arrive from within the 
artist but equally, they can happen from just about anywhere outside the head -- the accidentally spilled ink, the wrong key tapped, the light 
changing due to a passing cloud, someone calling for your attention in 
the midst of making creating a moment of inattention with consequences. 
Accepting imperfection lies at the heart of Japanese aesthetics called 
wabi-sabi."

Hi Christina,
I would go even one step further and call it "defect" or "the insufficiency of the medium." For instance, in some 19th century photographs, the most resonant spots are double e4xposures, blurred faces (due to the sudden movement of the subject before the lens), etc. 

Ciao,
Murat

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Christina Spiesel <christina.spiesel at yale.edu> wrote:

----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>Couldn't the word accident be used instead of "involuntary" which seems to travel closely with its antonym voluntary? Accidents happen with the best of planning but as AS noted below, sometimes artists choose to keep the accident and integrate it. Accidents can arrive from within the artist but equally, they can happen from just about anywhere outside the head -- the accidentally spilled ink, the wrong key tapped, the light changing due to a passing cloud, someone calling for your attention in the midst of making creating a moment of inattention with consequences. Accepting imperfection lies at the heart of Japanese aesthetics called wabi-sabi.
>
>CS
>
>On 7/17/2015 5:23 AM, aslemeur at free.fr wrote:
>
>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>Hi Murat
>>
>>in fact it can be made involuntary and kept afterwards voluntary, no ?
>>- as in painting -
>>you make a voluntary decision after having seen something, or after having made something involuntary
>>
>>'bad painting' was made bad on purpose
>>even F. Bacon voluntary threw dirty sponge on his paintings sometimes - as far as I know
>>
>>all resides in the context of the word meaning. technically non perfect or artistically non perfect
>>
>>cheers
>>
>>as
>>----- Mail original -----
>>De: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" <muratnn at gmail.com>
>> À: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au>
>>Envoyé: Mercredi 15 Juillet 2015 18:32:51
>>Objet: Re: [-empyre-] aslemeur, experimental 3D image, Moscow, July 2015
>>
>>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>Hi Anne-Sarah,
>>
>>I wonder if such a thing as "voluntary imperfection" exists, ambiguous or
>>otherwise. First, if it is voluntary, it is not an imperfection. Second,
>>doesn't imperfection imply a loss of control on the maker's side? In
>>another context (in the essay "Questions of Accent") I describe this as one
>>being "unable to hear his or her own accent."
>>
>>Ciao,
>>Murat
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:54 AM, <aslemeur at free.fr> wrote:
>>
>>
>>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>Hi there,
>>>
>>>- If I make a programming mistake, then the program would not work. too
>>>bad.
>>>- I can make a 'thinking' programming mistake (I think I code this order,
>>>but in fact I am coding something else)
>>>then it works, but not as I thought it would. Should I keep that offer or
>>>not ?
>>>It probably depends on the artistic aspect it brings ?
>>>
>>>here what I like is that the 'thinking' programming mistake - that I very
>>>often do- are generating artistic visual ... elements,
>>>unpredicted, surprising, that can enrich the work (conceptualy/visualy...)
>>>
>>>it can appear as technical mistake to the viewer (or not). depends on the
>>>level of irreverence/disobedience to the system and its appeal to
>>>perfection this element includes. or depends too on the artistic element it
>>>brings.
>>>I like to be inbetween. so the viewer can ask him/herself if what he/she
>>>perceives is 'normal'
>>>
>>>I wonder what tecnological art pieces demonstrate voluntary ambivalent
>>>imperfections...
>>>and if 'unfinished' technological art pieces are shown ?
>>>
>>>regards,
>>>
>>>Anne-Sarah
>>>----- Mail original -----
>>>De: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" <muratnn at gmail.com>
>>> À: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au>
>>>Envoyé: Mardi 14 Juillet 2015 22:07:07
>>>Objet: Re: [-empyre-] aslemeur, experimental 3D image, Moscow, July 2015
>>>
>>>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>Hi Horea,
>>>
>>>Actually, we are agreeing. The human (in this instance the artist's)
>>>inability to control the medium (which the human mind may project as a
>>>failure of the machine} is exactly what is liberating. With no conscious
>>>will or intention of the user, it enables the user to transgress the
>>>logical system, exigencies the machines creates around itself. In one
>>>sense, the machine "makes a mistakes." In another sense, the machine has
>>>abilities beyond the human ones.
>>>
>>>I talk in detail about the importance of the "inefficiences" of the
>>>technological medium in the creation of art discussing 19th century
>>>photographic light in my book *The Peripheral Space of Photography (Los
>>>Angeles: *Green Integer, 2004*).* In an earlier discussion a few months ago
>>>here, I referred to an interview with the film maker Renoir where he talks
>>>about the importance of defects in technology in fil (and art in general).
>>>The interview is on utube.
>>>
>>>Ciao,
>>>Murat
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Horea Avram <horea.avram at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>Hi Murat and Anne-Sarah,
>>>>
>>>>I also believe that it is crucial to define what a "mistake" might be in
>>>>the context of machines or dispositifs.
>>>>Is the "technological being" (i.e. the machine/dispositif) able to make
>>>>mistakes? Or mistakes are entirely human being's responsibility?
>>>>
>>>>I think mistakes are not liberation from machines (and here I disagree
>>>>with Murat), but they are intrinsic part of the machines.
>>>>And by mistakes I mean those technical shortcomings and imperfections in
>>>>the interaction process, those delays in what should be a real-time
>>>>
system,
>>>
>>>those real-virtual registration and superimposition errors, especially in
>>>>Augmented Reality and ubiquitous computing devices and applications, etc.
>>>>These "mistakes", as I see them, not only permit the system function (of
>>>>course within an estimated and acceptable error range), but they can be
>>>>seen as a distinctive aesthetic aspect of the technological medium
>>>>(whatever that is). These flaws can be assumed (especially in artistic
>>>>projects) as the artist's "trace," or as the tool's "stroke" that can
>>>>reflect the attributes of the medium(s), the unique play between the
>>>>accuracy of the machine and our subjective actions, between the
>>>>transparency of the medium and its reflexive strategy (the flawless
>>>>
machine
>>>
>>>vs. the subjective, "emotional" machine).
>>>>Isn't this an aspect of the intersubjectivity human-machine/dispositif?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Horea
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 12:27 PM, <aslemeur at free.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>Hi Murat
>>>>>
>>>>>so people here are reading extra messages... with links !
>>>>>good to know !!
>>>>>
>>>>>thank you for your note.
>>>>>I guess I have to define what is a 'mistake' :
>>>>>mistake in my understanding of how to program my interactive rules ?
>>>>>and more seemingly mistake in the eyes of the viewer...
>>>>>when the logic seems not logical 'enough'...
>>>>>
>>>>>I will read Cocteau again...
>>>>>
>>>>>Have a nice week,
>>>>>
>>>>>Anne-Sarah
>>>>>----- Mail original -----
>>>>>De: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" <muratnn at gmail.com>
>>>>> À: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au>
>>>>>Envoyé: Samedi 11 Juillet 2015 23:21:38
>>>>>Objet: Re: [-empyre-] aslemeur, experimental 3D image, Moscow, July 2015
>>>>>
>>>>>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>Hi Anne-Sarah,
>>>>>
>>>>>Mistakes are liberation from machines. If you can make a machine make a
>>>>>mistake, it seems you are liberating yourself from it-- as Cocteau's
>>>>>infernal machine implies.
>>>>>Ciao,
>>>>>Murat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 5:07 AM, <aslemeur at free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>Hello !
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyone in Moscow ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am presenting my interactive cylindrical piece, Beyond-Round, in
>>>>>>
RuArts
>>>>>
>>>>>Gallery, until 31th of July,
>>>>>>To Look at and To See, french-russian group exhibition,
>>>>>>with Guillaume Guérin, Christian Lebrat, Alexandra Mitlyanskaya, and
>>>>>>Natalia Smolianskaïa (and myself).
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_ruartsgallery&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=q0krq9m4fZgsWdRS4GeYCTtVDSLngZdLpiAr88JN8FU&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_ruartsgallery_photos_pcb.10154194139743475_10154194138083475_-3Ftype-3D1-26theater&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=F6duQs4LsUxXieaKfLjCM7gAGcCKDbfplHq4cRgFsgY&e=
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_ruartsgallery_photos_a.10152820709668475.1073741837.370920953474_10154189485038475_-3Ftype-3D1-26theater&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=VgmWzt0etrVz-UV-SSxYGMxCfgmzCzLcSTdfBaBj2Xw&e=
>>>
>>>TV report : https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mir24.tv_video_12892691&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=pTslIlBBaEgguTfReevz5gdia-CTm-1EFuu2BgHTc6w&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Beyond-Round (2000 - 2012) is a perception labroratory, where the
>>>>>>spectator is experimenting lack of vision and loss of power, untill
>>>>>>
s/he
>>>
>>>finally understands that the interactive moving image has to be
>>>>>>
<<tamed>>
>>>>>
>>>>>to be looked at. (I am using peripheral vision and slowness as key
>>>>>>
elements)
>>>>>
>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__aslemeur.free.fr_projets_outre-5Fr-5Feng.htm&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=pu97e-h8PTe2OXLuBSpnTq7qb3jSROxPnADUDT9OCSQ&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www02.zkm.de_videocast_index.php_aktuell_440-2Danne-2Dsarahlemeurbeyondround.html&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=OL_sXsJ27_-O9tO6Qu73jnohdyLVTkUekYyHtQdcTdY&e=
>>>
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__vimeo.com_44651679&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=bqlEidWCuyVQ8Zp5gIgFcK64JaTq9UPZ0cP0maWQEOM&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>and will have a artist talk at Fabrika :
>>>>>>friday 17.07, 4:00-5:30 PM, Artist Talk Anne-Sarah Le Meur, French
>>>>>>animation Festival, Fabrika
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.proektfabrika.ru_&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=j0Gn6T_iidISp6HoX8YTOlo5EeEtG-LEFNcVGJ_jMBo&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.proektfabrika.ru_-23events_artist-2Dtalk-2Dc-2Dann-2Dsara-2Dle-2Dmerquothudozhnica-2Dv-2Drezidenciiquot-2Dcti-2Dfabrika&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=Hfrg846_McVmxeUGbPe7UCsIEnRwWjfTXR1HGCxecbU&e=
>>>
>>>I will speak on the influence of painting and programming language on
>>>>>>generated 3D images and will present my exploration of unconventional
>>>>>>
3D
>>>
>>>images.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would be happy to meet anyone there, or for any occasion somewhere
>>>>>>
else
>>>>>
>>>>>in Moscow,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anne-Sarah Le Meur
>>>>>>Artist, Assistant Professor, Pantheon-Sorbonne Paris 1 University
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__aslemeur.free.fr_projets_agenda-5Feng.htm&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=f9_F1c6NaL2HBkFh8kl1PYD8-V950Pd_0LLGrEBIIYc&e=
>>>>>>**********************************************************************
>>>>>>Anne-Sarah Le Meur is represented by Charlot Gallery, Paris
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.galeriecharlot.com_fr_39_Anne-2DSarah-2DLe-2DMeur&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=i6HJ_Y-a_alnodakPfu-Q0m3sdiRdF-gpXk85mAmrPI&e=
>>>>>>**********************************************************************
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>empyre forum
>>>>>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>empyre forum
>>>>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>empyre forum
>>>>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>empyre forum
>>>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>empyre forum
>>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>empyre forum
>>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>empyre forum
>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>_______________________________________________
>>empyre forum
>>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__empyre.library.cornell.edu&d=AwIGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=rMhkFzJJd1Ylr7YtWAk9EZ8kWeBgJWGU9szcRcCgZ6Y&m=D4GBP2oFFZi_QPrHcETp08ZTrylsIwsA78MzKHnX-nc&s=cWBpR6TxhYf4i85z_KseQqlcZ5UgJiMQH9U5ausE9dk&e=
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>empyre forum
>empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>http://empyre.library.cornell.edu

----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------

_______________________________________________
empyre forum
empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
http://empyre.library.cornell.edu