[-empyre-] Starting the Third Week: Michael Boghn and Jerome Sala

Mon Nov 21 03:10:33 AEDT 2016

Ana, we do not disagree. What I meant was that there has been a prevalent
opinion for a long time that science is the Truth about the world and
religion, etc., is something else. I was making a joke bout that attitude.

Ciao,
Murat

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com> wrote:

> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>
> But all narratives are fiction religion is a narrative too and it's
> fiction as well a very powerful tool. And science play the role as well.
> That's because many call science the new religion :)
> Language is a fiction too :)
> Ana
>
> Den 20 nov 2016 11:53 skrev "Murat Nemet-Nejat" <muratnn at gmail.com>:
>
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> What I mean is that science has built its own narrative of truth by which
>> it prevails which can also be a fiction.
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Sorry I don't understand your question.
>>>
>>> Skickat från min iPad
>>>
>>> > 19 nov. 2016 kl. 21:53 skrev Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com>:
>>> >
>>> > I am an old fan of science fiction and I am still in love with masters
>>> as Philip K Dick Sturgeon and Ursula Le Guin. They wrote about dystopian
>>> realities not far from ours. Sturgeon wrote about a gestalt a kind of
>>> complex unity composed by kids with extra sensorial abilities I don't want
>>> to call it "powers" to avoid any link to Marvels hyped heroes.
>>> > And Ursula Le Guin, an anarchist, challenged the whole idea of an
>>> antrhopomorfic God.
>>> > Science needs a narrative to prevail.
>>> > Ana
>>> >
>>> > Skickat från min iPad
>>> >
>>> >> 19 nov. 2016 kl. 21:34 skrev Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>:
>>> >>
>>> >> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> >> "... "we're mostly unaware of how deeply our lives depend upon
>>> >> the functioning of complex, expert systems..." -- we're the fish in
>>> >> their ocean (McLuhan) (unless they break down). ..."
>>> >>
>>> >> That's why a digital art critiquing its own medium must involve, one
>>> >> way or another, a break down of its system. It must have an ethos of
>>> >> inefficiency or failure at its center-- not an expression of power,
>>> >> but weakness-- maybe an elusive glitch that the reader may experience
>>> >> subliminally or a software that decrease communication rather than
>>> >> improving it, etc., etc.
>>> >>
>>> >> "...I am not sure whether the "digital" can speak its truth (at least
>>> in a
>>> >> language we understand), but Shaviro suggests one way we humans might
>>> >> begin to see its truth/reality for ourselves - by creating art where
>>> >> the "material and technological factors are explicitly
>>> foregrounded...."
>>> >>
>>> >> I do not agree with this part of the argument. Most often, this kind
>>> >> of work is celebratory, of "look what I'm doing, ma" kind  (I hope
>>> >> people will jump up and show the error of my way). It suggests that
>>> >> the technology is revealing something about us when in actually the
>>> >> work is mimicking, promoting the reality the technology is imposing.
>>> >>
>>> >> I think all great science fiction is dystopian. And I am a great fan
>>> >> and believer in it as a modern relevant form of expression. My
>>> >> previous poem The Spiritual Life of Replicants is actually a science
>>> >> fiction work. At this moment, Peter Valente's reference to Melies's
>>> >> silent masterpiece A Voyage to the Moon comes to my mind. On first go,
>>> >> it seems to be a science fiction work that is celebrating the future.
>>> >> So far so good... But the film is so full of domestic details and the
>>> >> space ship the "space men" are traveling on is so ramshackle that one
>>> >> gradually realizes that the people are transporting their bourgeois,
>>> >> middle class life to the moon, that the movie is a magical, exquisite
>>> >> piece of satire.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ciao,
>>> >> Murat
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Jerome Sala <
>>> jeromesala502 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> >>> Murat, your question, as to whether "the computer (and the web and
>>> its
>>> >>> consequence) has the ability to expose and criticize the condition it
>>> >>> has created...whether the digital can be 'revealer of is own truth',
>>> >>> brought to mind a book I've been reading - Discognition, by Steven
>>> >>> Shaviro. One of the points Shaviro argues is that, in our everyday
>>> >>> experience, "we're mostly unaware of how deeply our lives depend upon
>>> >>> the functioning of complex, expert systems..." -- we're the fish in
>>> >>> their ocean (McLuhan) (unless they break down). Another aspect we
>>> >>> don't grasp, as your question implies, is that such technological
>>> >>> entities, rather then just being there, inert until we manipulate
>>> >>> them, have an agency of their own: "...if we engineer them, in
>>> various
>>> >>> ways, they 'engineer' us as well, nudging us to adapt to their
>>> >>> demands."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I am not sure whether the "digital" can speak its truth (at least in
>>> a
>>> >>> language we understand), but Shaviro suggests one way we humans might
>>> >>> begin to see its truth/reality for ourselves - by creating art where
>>> >>> the "material and technological factors are explicitly foregrounded."
>>> >>> His book is about science fiction stories that do this. Perhaps this
>>> >>> is also what I had in mind by the poetic project I wrote about, which
>>> >>> foregrounds digital/corporate cliches that inform us, through the
>>> >>> jargon we speak. In any case, Shaviro's book may offer a clue as to
>>> >>> the great popularity of the SF genre. Often, in allegorical ways, it
>>> >>> acknowledges the agency of the technological (remember the Borg?),
>>> and
>>> >>> enables people to start talking about the power of its influence.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> >>>> Hi Jerome, by your question on the nature of "knowing" in poetry, I
>>> >>>> think you touched a critical point, an issue running throughout the
>>> >>>> discussions and presentations this month.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Knowledge that poetic experience contains or "reveals" does have
>>> >>>> multiple facets. On the one hand, the knowledge (in some
>>> incarnations,
>>> >>>> message/propaganda) may be transactional and implicitly points or
>>> >>>> leads to action. Some great classics are of that sort, for instance,
>>> >>>> Lucretius's On Nature or Virgil's Eclogues, Shakespeare's Henry V
>>> and
>>> >>>> also, in some sense, though a book of "revelation," The Bible, etc.
>>> >>>> The election of Trump last week drove the discussion to the
>>> >>>> transactional side of poetry (art), and rightly so. That is what all
>>> >>>> the writing invited to be sent to Dispatches for the anthology all
>>> >>>> about. So are the post cards Craig refers to, as conceptual acts.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> There is another kind of knowledge that poetry "reveals," not
>>> >>>> necessarily leading to action-- of course, the distinction is
>>> somewhat
>>> >>>> artificial since a poem or work of art contains both simultaneously
>>> >>>> each time creating a different balance. If one extreme side of this
>>> >>>> spectrum is propaganda (all nations/cultures/languages have
>>> propaganda
>>> >>>> masterpieces), the other extreme is gnosis-- a knowledge not quite
>>> >>>> contained in the practicalities of a language, but in its
>>> peripheries,
>>> >>>> the often unacknowledged overtones that emanate from words, space,
>>> >>>> etc. (embedded in poesies).
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> It is in terms of this same dilemma (the nature of poetic knowledge)
>>> >>>> that Heidegger is discussing technology in his essay. On the one
>>> hand
>>> >>>> it is defined as "enframing" nature to exploit it (in terms that
>>> >>>> Francis Bacon asserts as "knowledge is power"). On the other hand,
>>> it
>>> >>>> returns technology to its roots as techne, a making that reveals the
>>> >>>> truth. Their relationship is dialectical.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I have been on Empyre list for about two years, following it on and
>>> >>>> off with interest because it presents to me a digital culture that
>>> is
>>> >>>> of great interest to me; but in which I am not directly involved as
>>> a
>>> >>>> practitioner. What struck me most is that, save for important
>>> >>>> exceptions such as Alan Sondheim and Isak Berbic (and I am sure
>>> there
>>> >>>> are others), the focus of the participants was on what the internet
>>> or
>>> >>>> the computer can do for them, on the computer as a new potent
>>> enabler,
>>> >>>> the computer as artistic or political power. As far as I can see,
>>> >>>> little attention was given to it as a revealer of "truth," the
>>> >>>> knowledge of human condition and psyche in a digital technological
>>> >>>> age.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In my view, poetry (art) is doomed to die without containing within
>>> >>>> itself both these knowledge, though the melange may be different in
>>> >>>> each.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The underlying focus for me this month has been, that is why I
>>> >>>> accepted the invitation to moderate, to explore whether the computer
>>> >>>> (and the web as its consequence) has the ability to expose and
>>> >>>> criticize the condition it has created, in other words, whether the
>>> >>>> digital can be the "revealer of its own truth." I can not say I have
>>> >>>> been that successful up to now.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The primary text for this month is the fifteen minute video clip I
>>> >>>> referred to in my introductory statement at the beginning of the
>>> month
>>> >>>> in which the film maker Jean Renoir discusses the effect of
>>> technology
>>> >>>> on art (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Mtd6GE_PI ). He says that
>>> >>>> art becomes boring to the extent that that the art maker is in total
>>> >>>> control of his or her own materials and techniques. He refers to a
>>> >>>> group of 11th century French tapestries (the Bayeux, the first known
>>> >>>> ones) where the threads were coarsely spun, the colors were
>>> primitive
>>> >>>> and of a narrow range; but they contained great beauty, revealing
>>> the
>>> >>>> strife of their making.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> That is why "Overcoming Technique"--the first two words of my
>>> >>>> introductory title-- is crucial, whether one finally agrees with
>>> >>>> Renoir or not. In our daily lives with family and children and
>>> >>>> teaching and grading papers, etc., I hope some of us find time to
>>> >>>> re-focus on these issues the remaining days of this month. As
>>> artists,
>>> >>>> the issues are important for all of us.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Ciao,
>>> >>>> Murat
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Craig Saper <csaper at umbc.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> >>>>> Relevant to the discussion and the “dispatches” this event might
>>> speak to the issue of, what Jerome Sala called in a recent "poetry is a
>>> particular way of knowing the mind” …
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> "Post Card Avalanche"
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Join in and send a postcard directly to Trump! Here are the basic
>>> instructions to participate:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> ** IMPORTANT - Don't mail your card until NOV. 26th **
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> In the message section, write this simple message: NOT BANNON!
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Throw a post card Avalanche party. Make postcards.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Address it as follows:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Donald Trump
>>> >>>>> c/o The Trump Organization
>>> >>>>> 725 Fifth Avenue
>>> >>>>> New York, NY 10022
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Affix a stamp - you can use a 35 cent postcard stamp, or a normal
>>> letter stamp.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Take a picture of your postcard that you can share on social media
>>> using the hashtag #stopbannon
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Drop it in the mail! We are aiming to get these mailed between
>>> Saturday, Nov 26th and Monday, Nov. 28th to create a concentrated avalanche
>>> of postcards.”
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
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>>
>>
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