[-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

Wed Nov 30 09:26:46 AEDT 2016

Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).

Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose abstractions
are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure abstract
visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the words and
have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference between
visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in which I
find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.

I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.  It
always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of the
expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional instrument.
Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound is the same as
playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear live acoustic or
plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for that. But when
it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want something visual to
go along with it and thus a genre was born.

Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?

 I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by Kay
Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).

Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
Foucaultian sense?

Sally

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and Chris
> sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual Reality.  I
> discovered that most of the universities that currently have departments
> devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as their
> social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they are
> most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
> actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
> flesh'.  It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more
> to human or planet disasters.  Just like photographs can shock at first but
> then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses.  Could it make
> it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide
> disasters are brought into our living room?
>
> That's an aside, but I'm going to explore the possibilities of a movement
> residency with one of these departments.  Can you imagine feeling like you
> are dancing with Fred Astaire, or in the movie, The Red Shoes, which has
> some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a fan of
> ballet particularly).  Or being in one of my dances? Apparently it's really
> easy to get motion sickness from VR so I'm curious about advancements on
> that front too.
>
> Sally
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Craig,  Happy to have a link to explore & connect with.  I'm
>> aware that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest.  Something to
>> overcome.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper <csaper at umbc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Sally
>>>
>>> You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of
>>> movement notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking
>>> for, but not finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt
>>> body”
>>>
>>> Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [
>>> https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/ ] … work that
>>> uses Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”
>>>
>>> Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier
>>> generation of experimental animators — especially Sky David?
>>>
>>> The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is
>>> probably stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want
>>> the “documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use
>>> dancers to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to
>>> say — it is too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical
>>> essay into “dance-poems”
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths.  But...  hope
>>> everyone  who celebrated had a great one.
>>>
>>> Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and
>>> music projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a  dance
>>> piece (right after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns  to make the connection
>>> between nuns who were the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god
>>> and celibacy in order to gain access to education & to avoid forced
>>> pregnancy and motherhood — & the cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based
>>> dualities.
>>>
>>> I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that Chris
>>> mentions as being so influential for him as well.
>>>
>>> http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays
>>>
>>> In my dance (*Strike Me Lighting*) the first half was devoted to nuns
>>> and the 2nd half to cyborgs.  I remember it was much easier to set in
>>> motion nuns than it was cyborgs.  All the kneeling, contemplating,
>>> in-fighting, and undercover sex, so to speak, had more oomph than bodies
>>> with mechanical parts.  The stiff robot move gets old fast.  I ended up
>>> having to use a lot of photographs from books on cyborgs and spatializing
>>> the moves with things like star constellation floor patterns.
>>>
>>> I find this to be true online as well.  The body may be the last thing
>>> to be made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated form.
>>> Unless you think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I don't as
>>> they mostly seem like a translation of the body into something to sell
>>> music or glamorize some other product. Of course there are some exceptions
>>> to this as when the form of video and the form of dance/movement make a new
>>> concept -- when the language of each is not diminished. But most of the
>>> dance on film or via computer that I've seen seems like documentation or
>>> romanticized body angles.
>>>
>>> Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live.  (well maybe
>>> toddlers & animals get a pass).  There is not yet a way to transform the
>>> most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video
>>> action.There is clumsy software that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly
>>> works with given movement combinations and vocabulary and allows you to
>>> recombine or select parts of the body, but it's not that easy to use to
>>> make something interesting for the computer itself; it's mostly a tool for
>>> rehearsal.
>>>
>>> When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.
>>>
>>> I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and digital
>>> art could be without it seeming gimmicky.
>>>
>>> I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered
>>> electronically by dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting
>>> light/sensor points on the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very
>>> pretty), but so far I have not seen or heard of anything that would allow
>>> actual interaction or that makes chance or algorithms  very available or
>>> interesting.  I'm waiting for virtual reality to at least make it more real
>>> and felt for the viewer because 3-d has been somewhat of a bust.  I have
>>> hopes for all these things but as of yet, nothing is as appealing to me as
>>> actually working on the live body.  The computer is a luddite when it comes
>>> to dance/choreography.
>>>
>>> When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up —
>>> mostly for managing the business side of a dance school!
>>>
>>> Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies, but
>>> I still remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that
>>> registers gravity  I'm waiting though; I'm eager for more knowledge on the
>>> possibilities of digital dance, in the way so many possibilities have been
>>> organized for digital poetry/language and digital music/sound.
>>>
>>> Sally Silvers
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>> Chris, first, happy Thanksgiving to you and to all the others, at least
>>>> the people living in the United States. Also thank you for your thoughtful
>>>> answers.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, for a short moment at least, the idea of making Empyre like a
>>>> 1990's listserv was intentional, ideas coming from different directions,
>>>> the excitement of not knowing where to turn next, etc. Those lists were
>>>> meandering, argumentative, even sometimes hostile; but very productive. My
>>>> purpose has been to project a sense of what we miss, what the web has
>>>> become.
>>>>
>>>> "... I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating
>>>> ways full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a
>>>> technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely
>>>> did), though not anymore..."
>>>>
>>>> The contradiction (in a positive sense) I am referring to is not in
>>>> your involvement in technology as a poet. After all, all of us as artists
>>>> or poets use technology. in some way or another, be it a pencil or a
>>>> computer. Rather, I am referring to, as I see it, an interesting
>>>> contradiction (or tension) in your ideals/impulses. On the one hand,
>>>> reading your *Prehistoric Digital Poetry*. I sensed a great interest
>>>> in developing the capabilities of the computer progressively to create a
>>>> poetry *unique to the medium* from word to image to movement to sound,
>>>> and their combination  --finally creating a poetic form which is both
>>>> absorbing and ephemeral and can be read practically in endless ways
>>>> depending on the choices the "reader" makes. In that synthesis, the digital
>>>> poem resembles very much a computer game where words/letters are one
>>>> element. Towards the end of the book, I remember asking myself what
>>>> differentiates that digital poem from a game (not a play). I don't think I
>>>> found a satisfactory answer in the book.
>>>>
>>>> It is basically that contradiction I am referring to. Perhaps, since
>>>> the writing of that book, you have found an answer and, therefore, see no
>>>> contradiction. A sense of play has always been part of poetry, but is a
>>>> game the same thing?
>>>>
>>>> Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that make
>>>> a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple levels (e.g.,
>>>> hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software standards
>>>> (i.e., Flash/Shockwave)
>>>>
>>>> Here I think we differ. Failure for me is a residue that remains in the
>>>> poem after it is "finished." It is integral to the kind of poetry or
>>>> poetics I write. Failure or success of communication, obtaining or failing
>>>> to obtain rights are different. I know for you the ephemeral quality of
>>>> internet sites or changing computer software are major issues. They are
>>>> what make digital poetry (or any digital art) temporary, subject to time.
>>>> Perhaps that is the failure that haunts digital works. I don't know. You
>>>> tell me.
>>>>
>>>> "...working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a
>>>> general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen
>>>> on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
>>>> be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly..."
>>>>
>>>> If I understand correctly, the basic creative part of a digital work
>>>> occurs in the programming of the software where the visionary or poetic
>>>> impulse comes into play. If the original idea changes, the program has to
>>>> be altered "on the fly";  or, I assume, sometimes the idea is bent by the
>>>> exigencies of the program. If so, how does the idea of perfection come into
>>>> play? In what sense is the code always perfect?  How do you know?
>>>>
>>>> "... there are ways to organize expression & project material without
>>>> being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s “perfection”. These
>>>> tools are there to help us do what we want..."
>>>>
>>>> ☺so the code is perfect and imperfect (or perfect with loop holes). I
>>>> like that.
>>>>
>>>> "... the coding allows the sound-image-text to be rendered
>>>> improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an instrument, or speak, and have
>>>> the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger onscreen or audible events...."
>>>>
>>>> How do you determine the triggered on screen or audible events are
>>>> random? Do you mean it feels random to the viewer/listener?
>>>>
>>>> "... Plus, programs like javascript enable impromptu, interactive
>>>> database stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot but project a
>>>> sense of spontaneity and uniqueness..."
>>>>
>>>> We are I think touching a very crucial issue. "A sense of spontaneity
>>>> and uniqueness" is an effect, basically a rhetorical trope. It can be
>>>> premeditated, created through hard labor or through a code. "Improvisation"
>>>> is an act. Something is either improvised or not. For instance, in his
>>>> performances, Taylor is improvising, not creating a sense of it. Doesn't
>>>> the difference matter?
>>>>
>>>> "... he idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human &
>>>> machine, made (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that
>>>> uses digital media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. ...."
>>>>
>>>> Chris, here we completely agree with each other. My poem *The
>>>> Spiritual Life of Replicants* is precisely such a work. In Blade
>>>> Runner --the film on which the poem is built (by the way, Blade Runner is
>>>> the last Hollywood film that uses no digital special effects)-- the
>>>> ultimate perfect code that no technology can break or contravene is
>>>> mortality, to which even the cyborgs are subject.
>>>>
>>>> Chris, thank you again for your thoughtful responses.
>>>>
>>>> To be continued...
>>>>
>>>> Murat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Funkhouser, Christopher T. <
>>>> christopher.t.funkhouser at njit.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Murat,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn’t delve into anything on Thanksgiving, & hope everyone had a
>>>>> blessed day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, let’s see… this discussion reminds me of being on listservs in
>>>>> the 90s: lots to think about, hard to keep up with everything, & difficult
>>>>> to elaborate as much as one would like, or could in a face-to-face
>>>>> situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating ways
>>>>> full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a
>>>>> technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely
>>>>> did), though not anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *But how often starting a work of art do we no where we are going (at
>>>>> least the kind of work I assume interests you and me)? We evolve, basically
>>>>> try to discover the work. In that way, intention is not a useful concept
>>>>> for me. To me failure has to do with gaps in a work, loose or unexplained
>>>>> parts though the work is presented as complete. In that way, failure is
>>>>> related more to a lack of total answer.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Discovering the work is a good way to describe what usually happens,
>>>>> but working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a general
>>>>> vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen on-the-fly.
>>>>> In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can be/is extended
>>>>> if to many big changes have to be made on the fly. If I don’t set up some
>>>>> sort of general intention, though (as in a yoga class), I’d likely have
>>>>> problems! Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that
>>>>> make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple levels
>>>>> (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software
>>>>> standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave))
>>>>>
>>>>> *What is interesting in what you do is that, while you "accept" the
>>>>> absolute perfection of the code, a lot of the artists that interest you and
>>>>> you get deeply involved with, including your own projects, are open ended,
>>>>> improvisational, "evanescent" so to speak, such as Cecil Tayloror the
>>>>> wonderful piece of music "Wedge" you linked us to in your post.*
>>>>>
>>>>> I do try to keep an open perspective on things, & working with
>>>>> programming/design software there are ways to organize expression & project
>>>>> material without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s
>>>>> “perfection”. These tools are there to help us do what we want, & there are
>>>>> ways to use them that allow invention & expansion rather than confine.
>>>>>
>>>>> *In what relation do you see the perfection of the digital code (its
>>>>> "unforgiving" divine reality :) ) and your improvisational aesthetics? I
>>>>> know in in your book you say that the poetry created digitally is
>>>>> essentially ephemeral, and the artist must acknowledge it. *
>>>>>
>>>>> I definitely accept ephemerality as a given, & expect most digital
>>>>> works—if not cared for/maintained with some dedication—will become unusable
>>>>> somewhere down the line (has already happened, to me & others--a lot),
>>>>> which in many cases is really unfortunate. I see it as part of the
>>>>> conditions of postmodern poetry. David Antin's skywriting piece disappeared
>>>>> even more quickly!
>>>>>
>>>>> fwiw, the thing about the work I’m doing now (for the past 5 years or
>>>>> so), with sound and image, is that the coding allows the sound-image-text
>>>>> to be rendered improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an instrument, or
>>>>> speak, and have the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger onscreen or
>>>>> audible events. Once I discovered how to make this happen, making
>>>>> improvised digital poems became possible. Plus, programs like javascript
>>>>> enable impromptu, interactive database stylings that may not be improvised
>>>>> on-the-spot but project a sense of spontaneity and uniqueness—they seem
>>>>> improvised (esp. if the user/viewer is allowed to input content). &, btw, I
>>>>> did end up posting some of the new work I've done, mapping voice to
>>>>> instrumentation, a couple of days ago at
>>>>> https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/page-33-infiltration (another approach,
>>>>> where instrument drives animation in performance is up at
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PkkqOzCf4 or
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si30Iajz4Zs (a collab with Amy &
>>>>> Sophia Sobers, whose projections do not appear unfortunately)
>>>>>
>>>>> "I was thinking about glitch after my post yesterday, but even in
>>>>> something that is glitch (in any form), the code functions properly.
>>>>> usually these works are aberrations imposed by composer, hardware, or
>>>>> software. but it is the surface that contains something
>>>>> unexpected/distorted. the code is *able *to do what it is
>>>>> instructed/informed to do. glitch is a great cyborgian form, whether
>>>>> intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, Chris, the above passage reminds me of Medieval (Christian)
>>>>> discourse on God and the existence of evil-- [image: ☺] OK! But the
>>>>> stakes are not so elevated. I was just rambling on, probably ineffectively,
>>>>> a certain topic. As far as making stuff goes, I never think of myself or
>>>>> anyone else as taking on the role of god, though I do like the highlighted
>>>>> passage of your post below!
>>>>>
>>>>> God's design is often inscrutable, but always there. Humanity can only
>>>>> experience the surface --and sees evil (unexpected/distorted): "What is the
>>>>> difference between God and virtual God?" "Virtual God is real." It's
>>>>> the software programmer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you elaborate on the following sentence: "glitch is a great
>>>>> cyborgian form, whether intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure. One of the first “theorists” I ever read was Donna Haraway, in
>>>>> 1991 when we were both living in Santa Cruz. Her Manifesto about Simians,
>>>>> Cyborgs, & Women really knocked me out & I kind of took it to heart & mind.
>>>>> The idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human & machine, made
>>>>> (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that uses digital
>>>>> media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. That was the reference
>>>>> point. Glitch can of course be done non-digitally (with scissors, paint,
>>>>> arms, *quod libet*) so it’s not exclusive to computers. I know a few
>>>>> people who, using software (as well as output manipulation) do intentional
>>>>> glitch work; othertimes, it happens by accident & comes to eyes, ears, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m sure I didn’t say enough, or address everything, but that’s it for
>>>>> the moment. Bests, CF
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>> Bruce, you have hooked up with the Project ten years earlier than me.
>>>>>> I had just returned from living in London for almost two years (and I had
>>>>>> said to my wife Karen that if I don't see another beautiful green park in
>>>>>> my life I'll be happy). I wanted to go to a poetry event in New York. It
>>>>>> was Wednesday, and at the Project Paul Auster was presenting his
>>>>>> anthology of French poetry that he had edited with multiple readers (to me
>>>>>> the most memorable was Armand Schwerner reading his Michaux
>>>>>> translations). That was it. I became friends with Bob Rosenthal and
>>>>>> Simon Pettet who had introduced Paul, and we created The Committee
>>>>>> for International Poetry. That was another adventure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with you about the ups and down of the Project. We all heard
>>>>>> our share of boring stuff there. I did doze off occasionally but the place
>>>>>> always seemed to come through. A lot of poets, artists came from different
>>>>>> parts of the States and the world and learned from and collaborated
>>>>>> with each other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the Project has been doing is what the Web is doing now. I have
>>>>>> had long term collaborations with artists over the years whom I have never
>>>>>> met. That is the huge positive of the digital world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We did want to focus attention on language itself as the medium,
>>>>>> but I'm not ready to embrace some of your characterization:  words &
>>>>>> letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize them in other
>>>>>> ways beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for us, the
>>>>>> author's personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric
>>>>>> expectations). We tended to want the readers' experience at the center —
>>>>>> which cuts against some of this binary of yours about the sensual,
>>>>>> movement-based vs. logical aspects of language"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce, when you say "We tended to want the readers' experience at
>>>>>> the center," are you saying anything different than saying "I want the text
>>>>>> at the center," the reader reading the text? The question interests me
>>>>>> because in my essay The Peripheral Space of Photography, I assert that what
>>>>>> is important in a photograph is not the photographer's focus (framing), but
>>>>>> what escapes that framing. The real dialogue occurs between the
>>>>>> watcher of the photograph and what is in front of the lens (human or a
>>>>>> landscape, etc.). If, as I think you are to saying, it is the reader (and
>>>>>> not purely the text), then even the "reveries" the reader builds around the
>>>>>> text reading it become part of it. Is that not so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Logical" was an unfortunate choice of words, on my part. I am more
>>>>>> interested in the distinction between predicated idea (therefore fixed) and
>>>>>> thought as process (therefore movement). One can have thought and/in
>>>>>> movement (that's what Eda is). In that way, thought is sensual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "So if there's an "exchange" it's a mutual bending (which might be
>>>>>> way too mutually disruptive to warrant being called a "synthesis"). Maybe
>>>>>> that's more like the relationship between a 'dialect' & an 'official'
>>>>>> language — [and by the way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a
>>>>>> synthesis]?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, mutually bending and disruptive, not a synthesis. That's what a
>>>>>> true, transforming translation does, bends, alters both languages,
>>>>>> discovers potentialities in them. Walter Benjamin does see a synthesis in
>>>>>> the process when he writes that in a translation "A" does not move to "B"
>>>>>> but both move to a third place "C ," which he calls "ideal
>>>>>> language." Some people believe Benjamin was being a "poet" (poet in the
>>>>>> pejorative sense) here. "Ideal language" is a mystical fantasy. I am not
>>>>>> one of them.  I believe it is part of the core of his very original concept
>>>>>> of translation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not necessarily. I believe in an art or poetry of continuous
>>>>>> dialectic. The Talmud, where the interpretations of  a holy passage are
>>>>>> never resolved and remain always multiple, is such a text.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be continued (inviting others to join).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Andrews <andrews at fordham.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all — finally figured out a little more about the interface [one
>>>>>>> of my least favorite words] & receiving messages intriguingly dated many
>>>>>>> hours ahead — from Australia — so it's already Thanksgiving the day before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, on Thanksgiving [with recent political events, e.g. the
>>>>>>> trumpocalypse, having disrupted so many things I was hoping for & hoping to
>>>>>>> give thanks for], Murat, for your Intro.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice to think of the Poetry Project as a site for adventurous
>>>>>>> exploring — certainly it's where I first had a chance to talk with you
>>>>>>> (often about matters political, Turkey, etc. — I started going there, &
>>>>>>> getting to read every couple years, right after arriving in NYC in 1975, to
>>>>>>> take a job as a Political Science professor [American Imperialism my
>>>>>>> specialty] wch lasted 38 of the 41 years since).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The so-called 'Language Poets' actually tended to question whether
>>>>>>> the consensus 'New York School/Beat' styles honored at the PProject was
>>>>>>> really still devoted to adventurously "exploring the outer limits and
>>>>>>> possibilities" of the medium: our aesthetics had taken shape in the early
>>>>>>> to mid 1970s, mostly outside of NY & hashed out in the mail rather than
>>>>>>> face to face in any community 'scene'. We did want to focus attention on
>>>>>>> language itself as the medium, but I'm not ready to embrace some of your
>>>>>>> characterization:  words & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to
>>>>>>> organize them in other ways beside what they were pointing to (which was
>>>>>>> too often, for us, the author's personalizing experience or expressiveness
>>>>>>> or traditional lyric expectations). We tended to want the readers'
>>>>>>> experience at the center — which cuts against some of this binary of yours
>>>>>>> about the sensual, movement-based vs. logical aspects of language. If I had
>>>>>>> to choose sides there, I'd always go with movement & the sensory, as a way
>>>>>>> to 'volatilize' & 'capacitate' its potential readers; my own writing
>>>>>>> certainly doesn't get much acclaim for being "logical". But I'd rather step
>>>>>>> outside any polemical wrangling about the poetry we do & keep things
>>>>>>> focused on the digital front:  for instance, whether an online presentation
>>>>>>> tends to help or hinder the kinds of reading that put movement & the senses
>>>>>>> in the forefront.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On your question:  I don't think that verbal language is basically a
>>>>>>> self-referential system; instead, it seems more like a messy hybrid. And so
>>>>>>> is what happens via the computer & the web: this may be distinctive as a
>>>>>>> linguistic/communicative arrangement, but that's not exactly what I see in
>>>>>>> the idea of it creating its own system. So if there's an "exchange" it's a
>>>>>>> mutual bending (which might be way too mutually disruptive to warrant being
>>>>>>> called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more like the relationship between a
>>>>>>> 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by the way, doesn't "the
>>>>>>> dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>> I have known these week's guest participants or been familiar with
>>>>>>>> their works for years. They have all been, directly or indirectly,  part of
>>>>>>>> the Poetry Project poetry and art community. A spirit of adventure
>>>>>>>> exploring the outer limits and possibilities each of his or her own media
>>>>>>>> that has been the characteristic of the place since 1960's for fifty years
>>>>>>>> permeates all of them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I met Chris Funkhauser first in 1994 during a Poetry Project
>>>>>>>> symposium on "Revolutionary Poetry." He and his friend Belle Gironde --both
>>>>>>>> University of Albany students at the time-- along with three other young
>>>>>>>> people had organized an "unofficial" workshop on "Poetry and Technology"
>>>>>>>> that, if I remember correctly, had set up its tent out in the garden of the
>>>>>>>> church. I was a member of the final panel that presented overviews of the
>>>>>>>> symposium. As part of my preparation, I visited the workshop. I was so
>>>>>>>> struck by what they were doing, by the spirit of Dada in their manifesto of
>>>>>>>> the virtual --yes, the possibilities of a virtual poetry was infused with
>>>>>>>> Dada mojo at the time-- that I spent a final, significant portion of my
>>>>>>>> talk on that workshop. I felt what the workshop was saying contained a
>>>>>>>> significant portion of the revolutionary spirit the symposium was searching
>>>>>>>> for. Chris and I remained friends ever since. Interestingly, Bruce Andrews,
>>>>>>>> the second guest participant this week, was another member of that panel
>>>>>>>> also.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here are two passages from "Takes or Mis-takes from the
>>>>>>>> Revolutionary Symposium, The Poetry Project, May 5-8, 1994," the second
>>>>>>>> being its ending. The talk consisted of quotations from the symposium
>>>>>>>> (peppered with my reactions):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "What's the difference between God and virtual God?"
>>>>>>>> "Virtual God is real." It's the software programer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "From The Poetry and Technology workshop: 'Give free shit to lure
>>>>>>>> them…. Commodity lives," Eric Swensen, the 'Enema' of Necro Enema
>>>>>>>> Amalgamated, producers of the manifesto BLAM!"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bruce Andrew was with Charles Bernstein the co-editor of the ground
>>>>>>>> breaking poetry magazine L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E which, as the "=" signs in the
>>>>>>>> title implies, ushered a new attitude towards poetry and language. Letters,
>>>>>>>> words relate more to each other than to a referential point outside. The
>>>>>>>> result was the transforming (and influential on younger poets) poetry
>>>>>>>> movement Language School of which Bruce is a key member. As a poet, I have
>>>>>>>> had serious disagreements with strict (in my view, almost fundementalist)
>>>>>>>> take on language the movement embodies. I come from the East (Turkey).
>>>>>>>> Though equally exploring, my view of language is different, more sensual,
>>>>>>>> based on movement than logic. I tried to bring these qualities to English
>>>>>>>> language and American poetry though my concept of Eda. On the other, I must
>>>>>>>> admit the poetry of my friends in the States inevitably bent the direction
>>>>>>>> of my work. I believe Eda will do, and is already doing, the same even
>>>>>>>> though though the effect is not totally visible yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is one question I  would like very much Bruce to explore, if
>>>>>>>> at all possible, among many others. The computer seems to create its own
>>>>>>>> linguistic/communicative system. If verbal language also is basically a
>>>>>>>> self-referential system, how do you see the possibility of exchange between
>>>>>>>> these two entities? Is it at all, possible? If so, what has to bend to
>>>>>>>> accommodate the other? In other words, is the relationship towards
>>>>>>>> synthesis or always dialectical?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I saw Sally Silvers dance for the first time years ago during a
>>>>>>>> Poetry Project New Years' Day Marathon. I was immediate struck by the
>>>>>>>> uniqueness and originality of her dance. Over the years I tried to answer
>>>>>>>> that question because I felt it said something important, not only about
>>>>>>>> but beyond dance. Gradually, a picture emerged. Even watching avant-garde
>>>>>>>> or "experimental" dancers, I always feel that their movements are rehashed,
>>>>>>>> coming out of a repertoire of established avant grade movements. There was
>>>>>>>> nothing of that in Sally Silver's dancing. Every movement was itself,
>>>>>>>> nothing  more, nothing less. The movements had a solidity, embodying the
>>>>>>>> reality of gravity that run through them and shaped them. That earth bound
>>>>>>>> clarity was a thrilling thing to see. I am looking forward to what she has
>>>>>>>> to say about dance or anything else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the Empyre members, welcome to the fourth week.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dr. Christopher T. Funkhouser
>>>>> Program Director, Communication and Media
>>>>> Department of Humanities
>>>>> New Jersey Institute of Technology
>>>>> University Heights
>>>>> Newark, NJ 07102
>>>>> http://web.njit.edu/~funkhous
>>>>> funkhous at njit.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> empyre forum
>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>
>>
>>
>
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