Re: [-empyre-] the use in girls coming

Cristiano Bianchi <cristianobianchi@yahoo.com> · Fri Dec 6 05:12:01 2002

Hi Katherine, and thank you for your quick reply.

Two reasons, I can mention. The first one is that with
the years, I trust more and more my guts, compared to
my mind, which is going down the sink anyway. The
second is that they is what we normally do in Italy,
shot first, then ask :-) Though a few years of living
in the 'civilised' London should have had an effect.
They haven't.

On a more serious tone, the statement and post of
Julianne is clear in itself, I though, and expresses a
clear position that I disagree with. But not content
with it, I spent a good one hour going round the web
and checking out her site and the conferences where
she spoke, alse reading the material.

So I would not necessarily assume I fought out of
ignorance, intollerance and critisism of the female
gender :-)

If I can, I would also say that you, in your replies,
do nothing to contrast my arguments, but instead
attack my way of and arguing, and not the argument
themselves. We can carry doing this for another bit,
but it looks like personal stuff we should discuss in
private and not bother other list members.

What I'm interested in discussing, if you like, is the
lack of necessity for a cyber feminism movement in a
gender neutral environment like the web. It's not that
women are being repressed on the web like in the other
environments. And I don't know you, but whilst most of
my female friends can subscribe to some of the
original feminist claims and issues, would not like to
be identified as 21st century 'cunts'. If I was a
woman (and you cannot be sure I am not) I would be
deeply offended by this poor rendition of your gender.

Best regards,

Cristiano

 --- parrishka <parrishka@sympatico.ca> wrote: > Hi
Christiano,
> 
> thank you for this reply.
> i've nothing against the expression of informed
> strong opinions-
> but i'm not overly fond of dismissive remarks that
> precede an 
> attentive, careful reading of a work.
> 
> i wonder how it is that you could develop such an
> immediate assessment  
> of julianne's work from just one post? i myself have
> some critical 
> concerns regarding her approach, but i was going to
> ask a few more 
> questions before i formulated anything like a 
> conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 10:22  AM,
> Cristiano Bianchi wrote:
> 
> > Hi Katherine,
> >
> > I'm a guest here as well, simply expressing an
> > opinion. A rather strong one, if you like, but
> then
> > it's not the the Cyberfeminist Manifest goes down
> that
> > light either.
> >
> > It's not hostility per se, the reason of my
> message. I
> > thought I could express an opinion and I found
> deeply
> > irritating what I the misuse of feminism of the
> > cyberfeminist post.
> >
> 
> 
> > Now, while I understand the reason, motivation and
> > complexity of the feminist movement elsewhere, as
> a
> > rection to a (still) male dominated world,
> 
> 
> i'm sorry, christiano, but nothing you've posted so
> far  (these last 
> two) leads me to believe that you understand the
> reasons for or 
> complexities of feminism in cyberspace.  (for
> example, to characterize 
> feminism as merely a reaction to mysogyny is itself
> a problemmatic 
> definition. ) i'm not sure you're in a position to
> judge the "misuse of 
> feminism." i wouldn't say i'm in such a position
> either. again, this 
> postulates that there is one feminism and one way to
> go about it.
> 
> 
> 
> > I do
> > believe that such a movement is rather pointless
> in
> > the digital environemt, where you have exactly the
> > same rights, whether man or women. I cannot accept
> or
> > believe that someone is fighting against a male
> > dominated cyberspace (whatever that means) within
> the
> > most egalitarian and democratic medium ever. Where
> as
> > a woman you can do exactly the same things as men
> and
> > not only. As a women you can pretend to be a man.
> And
> > viceversa.
> 
> there has been about 15 years of writing (and not
> just by 
> cyberfeminists) to contradict your assertions here.
> the internet is far from egalitarian. we don't leave
> behind our 
> politics or our gendered ways of looking at the
> world when we construct 
> and participate in cyberspace.
> and cyberfeminism is not just concerned with
> combatting inequality.
> can you and i agree this much that our experiences
> of the physical 
> world are different because of our experiences of it
> as a woman and as 
> a man?
> much cyberfeminist literature is concerned with how
> these gendered and 
> sexualized experiences of the world inform our
> understanding of and 
> behaviour in cyberspace.
> i actually turned to feminist theory in the first
> place *because* of my 
> experiences in cyberpace- it was only there that i
> found a language 
> that could adequately express the nature of
> authorship in cybertext.
> 
> 
> i would urge you to reconsider whether you do really
> understand what 
> cyberfeminism is on about before you dismiss the
> project out of hand.
> let's have critique, by all means. but informed
> critique.
> 
> k.
> 
> 
> >
> > So sorry for interrupting your daily activities,
> and
> > forcing you to come back on this :-), but I felt
> the
> > same as you regarding the first post. Together
> with
> > the strong temptation to start a cyber-male
> chauvinist
> > movement as well, just to be even ;-) Of course
> I'm
> > joking, just in case this is misinterpreted as
> well.
> >
> > I'm still convinced we need better ideas.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Cristiano
> >
> >
> >
> >  --- parrishka <parrishka@sympatico.ca> wrote: >
> >> though i've been subscribed since May, i haven't
> >> always paid the
> >> strictest attention to the empyre posts because
> >> they've usually been so
> >> compelling & thought-provoking that they would
> >> distract me from the
> >> rest of my tasks for the day.
> >>
> >> so my knowledge of this list's behaviour is not
> >> completely reliable,
> >> but i cannot recall ever seeing such immediate
> >> hostility towards a
> >> guest here.
> >>
> >> you know what i find boring? having to dissuade
> >> myself repeatedly from
> >> coming to the conclusion that these kinds of
> attacks
> >> and/or dismissive
> >> gestures are manifestations of a masculinist
> fear.
> >> it feels too easy,
> >> and i like to think better of my fellow men.
> >>
> >> juliane, i look very much forward to hearing what
> >> you have to say.
> >> cyberfeminism is just as complex and fractious a
> >> subject as feminism,
> >> there are many feminisms, and many
> cyberfeminisms,
> >> and i still am
> >> hopeful that we can explore these issues in the
> >> intelligent,
> >> thoughtful, expansive, critical manner that has
> >> characterized the
> >> discussions here in the past.
> >>
> >> katherine parrish
> >> http://www.meadow4.com/squish
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> empyre forum
> >> empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> >> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> >
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=== message truncated === 

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