Fwd: [-empyre-] FW: lob

Fri May 16 07:04:54 EST 2008

Thank you very much Jenny!
I need to read more "old" mails!
some "old" answers!
all the best,
eduardo

Eduardo Molinari / Archivo Caminante
Aramburu 880, Dto.1 (1640) Martínez
Provincia de Buenos Aires – Argentina
0541 1 47 98 48 35

--- El jue 15-may-08, Jennifer Flores Sternad <jf at post.harvard.edu> escribió:

> De: Jennifer Flores Sternad <jf at post.harvard.edu>
> Asunto: Fwd: [-empyre-] FW: lob
> Para: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> Fecha: jueves, 15 de mayo de 2008, 3:40 pm
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eduardo Molinari
> <archivocaminante at yahoo.com.ar>
> Date: Thu, May 15, 2008 at 7:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] FW: lob
> To: Jennifer Flores Sternad <jf at post.harvard.edu>
> 
> 
> Dear Jenny,
> very good your commentary!
> 
> I think that our reflections during ExArgentina were
> crossed by
> the "hot atmosphere" of the crisis, the explotion
> of the neoliberal
> discursse of "precarity", that was not the
> consequence but the cause
> of more poverty in our country.
> 
> On that times (2001-2003) to say "from work to
> action" was very
> important for me to talk about how capitalism in our
> societies
> (without national industries, and this "detail"
> is in the center of my
> remark about the diference between these two words) tries
> to normalize
> flexibilization / precarity.
> 
> Then, is good to read our work (Exargentina project) in two
> times:
> 
> - "From work to action" (Köln, 2004) was focused
> in the crisis, in the
> "explosion" of the laboratory that was making
> test about how
> "precarity" works.
> 
> - "Lanormalidad" (Buenos Aires,2006) was focused
> in the "return" to
> "normality", but... (and here is the point) when
> "precarity" must be
> accepted as normal.
> 
> For me then, precarity is not good to be asume as a
> category for our
> fight, because it was an imposition of the neoliberal
> language.
> 
> I can understand that in the nations with their own
> industries, this
> means another thing.  But again, like I proposed from the
> begining,
> our challenge -in this new step of our fight and dialogue-
> is to
> destroy this code. We need new words. Precarity is for me
> like a
> "trap".
> 
> In a romantic way, it seems like a good state, the social
> movements
> are -in one sense- "precaire". But we need to
> take care, because we
> are loosing the oportunity to imagine a new language, not
> in
> connection with the capitalistic one.
> 
> Yes Jenny, like you says, different objectives and
> different ways or
> organization are between unemployeed movements and
> piqueteros
> movement.
> We need to take care, because today, now, this movement
> (piqueteros)
> in Argentine are really close to the government. And is
> easy to
> understand this for me: they don't want to be precaire
> any more!
> 
> Only the radical left (old?) movements continue
> "out".
> 
> But... again, in the first world social dinamic, the
> unemployeed workers
> are not in a "social limbo", withour anymoney.
> The social insurance
> exists. Nobody is totally alone. And again, post
> industrialization is
> working, isn't it? I mean, where are the hands that
> produce the
> manufactures of the multinational companies? Not only
> robots, you
> know!
> 
> Then, the relation between labor, work, precarity and
> poverty is
> different -but totally connected- .
> 
> What I think is good is to think about objectives.
> We want to be "precaire"?
> 
> all the best jenny!
> can you resend to all the friends of empyre?
> I will answer soon the other mail.
> 
> eduardo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eduardo Molinari / Archivo Caminante
> Aramburu 880, Dto.1 (1640) Martínez
> Provincia de Buenos Aires – Argentina
> 0541 1 47 98 48 35
> 
> 
> --- El jue 15-may-08, Jennifer Flores Sternad
> <jf at post.harvard.edu> escribió:
> 
> > De: Jennifer Flores Sternad
> <jf at post.harvard.edu>
> > Asunto: Re: [-empyre-] FW: lob
> > Para: archivocaminante at yahoo.com.ar
> > Cc: "soft_skinned_space"
> <empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de mayo de 2008, 11:19 am
> > Dear Moli,
> >  how do you see  discussions on labor and work as
> framed by
> > the
> > concept of precarity compared with the  approach you
> took
> > in
> > ExArgentina?  I'm thinking, for example, of the
> > discourse developed
> > around ' fleeing from work to action'  or in
> your
> > essay for
> > LaNormalidad when you talk about the normalization or
> > precarity  (ie
> > poverty - (& i absolutely agree with you on the
> > importance of marking
> > that difference)
> >
> >  if precarity is meant to mark a departure from what
> is
> > described as a
> > traditional working class subject and established
> modes of
> > labor
> > organizing, then it seems to me that an important
> > counterpoint  would
> > be unemployed workers' movements / piquetero
> > movements...
> > but these strike me as very different . and organized
> > around different demands.
> > I'd like to know what you think about this...?
> >
> > besos,
> > jenny
> >
> > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Eduardo Molinari
> > <archivocaminante at yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
> > > Dear Brian, dear Cara,
> > > when I said that "precarity" is a
> central
> > concept in argentina,
> > > I'm talking about POVERTY.
> > > We can't think that "precarity"
> have a
> > good meaning in our societies (southamerican). Is a
> bad
> > joke to think that without resources
> > > we will do our activities in a better way.
> > > Is a political hipocresy for me to talk in this
> way.
> > > This was for me the "dificult" part of
> > Risler/Bergel "experience".
> > >
> > > I don't want to organize our real social
> troubles
> > with this concept.
> > > We have poverty, not precarity.
> > >
> > > Precarity (in argentina) is part of the discursse
> of
> > "flexibilization",
> > > totally in the line of the economical change of
> the
> > 90.
> > >
> > > we are in danger (in the sense that we will be
> > "lost in translation")
> > > if we use this word, because precarity for many
> young
> > people in the G8 countries is a kind of stress, of
> > emotional vibration when they feel
> > > not totally sure about their professional future.
> > >
> > > But for us is not stress, is not an
> "exception
> > state".
> > >
> > > sorry, totally respect, but...
> > >
> > > eduardo
> > >
> > > Eduardo Molinari / Archivo Caminante
> > > Aramburu 880, Dto.1 (1640) Martínez
> > > Provincia de Buenos Aires – Argentina
> > > 0541 1 47 98 48 35
> > >
> > >
> > > --- El jue 15-may-08, brian whitener
> > <iwaslike at hotmail.com> escribió:
> > >
> > >> De: brian whitener
> <iwaslike at hotmail.com>
> > >> Asunto: [-empyre-] FW: lob
> > >> Para: empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > >> Fecha: jueves, 15 de mayo de 2008, 4:06 am
> > >> >
> > >> > "You are true Cara!!! precarity and
> > starvation
> > >> are central questions today.
> > >> > In argentina, post-industry don't
> mean
> > nothing. We
> > >> didn't have NEVER a real national
> industry. Is
> > >> post-nothing.
> > >> > but then... your question is also our
> > question."
> > >> >
> > >> > Precarity: a useful category in Latin
> > America?
> > >> >
> > >> > there was an encurentro organized by
> Julia
> > Risler and
> > >> Martin Bergel in BA
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> http://estrecho.indymedia.org/newswire/display/21374/index.php
> > >> >
> > >> > i'm not sure what came of it, but i
> heard
> > the
> > >> experience was both interesting and dificult.
> > >> >
> > >> > brian
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:50:47
> -0700
> > >> >> From: archivocaminante at yahoo.com.ar
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] expanded
> (CB)
> > >> >> To: empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Wonderrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
> > >> >> fulllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
> > >> >> maillllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> many images here dear Cara!
> > >> >> thank you very much.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I have time today to read your
> words.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs
> pigs
> > >> >> pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs
> pigs
> > >> >> pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs pigs
> pigs
> > >> >>
> > >> >> great.
> > >> >> and thank you for Alberto
> > Grecoooooooooooooooooo!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> un abrazo for Marc&Christina!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Very important your commentary about
> > migrations in
> > >> America.
> > >> >> Is really very important.
> > >> >> I was 8 months last year in germany.
> > >> >> strongs feelings there, and one of
> them
> > was the
> > >> question about migration in argentina.
> > >> >> Catholic - Jewuis traditions are
> very
> > strong
> > >> tradition in argentina, they are in the
> > "heart"
> > >> of our mixed / mestiza society.
> > >> >> Black people was killed, as slaves
> or
> > >> "soldiers" during the war against
> > Paraguay.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I imagine that protestant /
> calvinist,
> > also
> > >> paganismus is working in the migrations of
> North
> > America.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Because of all this
> > "migrations" I like
> > >> very much to know more about pre-hispanic
> cultures
> > in
> > >> America. Is a central part of my
> investigation
> > with
> > >> artistic methods.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Very good the images of
> insite05!!!!! I
> > like this!
> > >> Thank you very much!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The last part of your mail is a very
> good
> > >> devolution,
> > >> >> I can say
> > >> >> YES YES YES, "we" CAN
> identify
> > >> >> material conditions that need to be
> > addressed
> > >> >> without representing other!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Because we will present them
> together,
> > >> >> like the blood of Genova in your
> mail.
> > >> >> Those red material
> conditions(saddly)are
> > present.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> For me is really a big challenge to
> > identify these
> > >> "material conditions"
> > >> >> that have still a potence living or
> able
> > to live.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My Walking Archives / Archivo
> Caminante
> > tries to
> > >> do this, not for putting them "in
> > order", but to
> > >> transport.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> You are true Cara!!! precarity and
> > starvation are
> > >> central questions today.
> > >> >> In argentina, post-industry
> don't
> > mean
> > >> nothing. We didn't have NEVER a real
> national
> > industry.
> > >> Is post-nothing.
> > >> >> but then... your question is also
> our
> > question.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> eduardo
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Eduardo Molinari / Archivo Caminante
> > >> >> Aramburu 880, Dto.1 (1640) Martínez
> > >> >> Provincia de Buenos Aires –
> Argentina
> > >> >> 0541 1 47 98 48 35
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --- El dom 11-may-08, Jennifer
> Flores
> > Sternad
> > >> escribió:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> De: Jennifer Flores Sternad
> > >> >>> Asunto: [-empyre-] expanded (CB)
> > >> >>> Para:
> "soft_skinned_space"
> > >> >>> Fecha: domingo, 11 de mayo de
> 2008,
> > 6:56 pm
> > >> >>> from cara baldwin
> > >> >>> (thank you, cara!)
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> ------ Forwarded Message
> > >> >>> From: Cara Baldwin
> > >> >>> Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 13:07:09
> -0700
> > >> >>> To:
> "moarquech at yahoo.com.mx,
> > >> soft_skinned_space"
> > >> >>> ,
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] Re:
> expanded
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Conversation in an elevator, .
> > looking at the
> > >> stains on
> > >> >>> wood :
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --Which is better? This, or
> doing
> > this?
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --This.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --Bring him to see or bring them
> to
> > see?
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --Bring them to see.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Alberto Greco, from Manifesto
> > Vivo-Dito, 1963
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> back in the 90's (can't
> write
> > this
> > >> without using a
> > >> >>> crackly old man
> > >> >>> voice) i was saving barricades
> in my
> > apartment
> > >> for a rainy
> > >> >>> day. i put
> > >> >>> them on either side of the
> bridges
> > that
> > >> connected the city
> > >> >>> and they
> > >> >>> quietly disappeared. i changed
> my
> > underwear in
> > >> public and
> > >> >>> told
> > >> >>> everyone i was ana mendieta.
> learned
> > about
> > >> chicano cultural
> > >> >>> politics
> > >> >>> and activism. met collaborators
> and
> > friends
> > >> marc herbst and
> > >> >>> christina
> > >> >>> ulke and began years of
> conversation
> > about
> > >> anything we
> > >> >>> could imagine
> > >> >>> and do together. following
> seattle we
> > found
> > >> ourselves
> > >> >>> spending the
> > >> >>> summer in L.A. working with
> folks
> > setting up
> > >> an la
> > >> >>> indymedia for the
> > >> >>> 2000 democratic national
> convention.
> > >> representation.
> > >> >>> organization, and
> > >> >>> lot's and lot's of
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> pigs. pigs. pigs. pigs. pigs. p
> pigs.
> > pigs.
> > >> pigs. pigs.
> > >> >>> pigs. pigs.
> > >> >>> pigs. pigs. pigs. pigs. pigs.
> pigs.
> > pigs.
> > >> pigs. pigs. pigs.
> > >> >>> pigs.
> > >> >>> pigs. pigs. pigs. pigs. pigs.
> pigs.
> > pigs.
> > >> pigs.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> brian holmes wrote about the
> > "inflated
> > >> art scenes of
> > >> >>> the 90s" and that
> > >> >>> to "be an activist then was
> not
> > >> fashionable in any
> > >> >>> way, it was
> > >> >>> considered totally retrograde in
> > artistic
> > >> circles."
> > >> >>> critique at this
> > >> >>> time lacked currency materially
> and
> > culturally
> > >> (narrow
> > >> >>> sense of the
> > >> >>> word) from where i was standing.
> > listening to
> > >> someone
> > >> >>> slather on about
> > >> >>> 68 and a postcolonial
> theorist's
> > incisive
> > >> critique of
> > >> >>> metanarrative i
> > >> >>> wondered if the blood i'd
> seen in
> > images
> > >> of the diaz
> > >> >>> school around
> > >> >>> genoa g8 was part of someone i
> loved.
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> >
> http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/genova/pics4a.htm
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> adorno's "there is no
> love
> > that is
> > >> not an
> > >> >>> echo." floating a desire to
> > >> >>> share the acoustic space in
> which we
> > breath,
> > >> speak, feel
> > >> >>> and act in a
> > >> >>> way that is occupied and
> open—but
> > not like a
> > >> yoga group.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> i also respond to eduardo
> > molinari's
> > >> approach to the
> > >> >>> expanded,
> > >> >>> particularly considering
> migration
> > patterns
> > >> across the
> > >> >>> americas and
> > >> >>> would only extend that history
> and
> > migration
> > >> (not just
> > >> >>> recent. not
> > >> >>> just one way). grimson and
> > kessler's on
> > >> argentina and
> > >> >>> the southern
> > >> >>> cone: neoliberalism and national
> > imaginations,
> > >> and
> > >> >>> dunbar-ortiiz's
> > >> >>> roots of resistance speak to
> this in
> > a
> > >> localized and
> > >> >>> concrete way.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> because of the relative economic
> > stability in
> > >> north america
> > >> >>> during
> > >> >>> 2000 most of the art i saw
> > produced/reproduced
> > >> in
> > >> >>> institutional
> > >> >>> contexts were either new media
> works
> > of a post
> > >> modern or
> > >> >>> minimalist
> > >> >>> aesthetic or frothy blown out
> > paintings meant
> > >> to illustrate
> > >> >>> 'networks
> > >> >>> and flows.' couldn't
> wait for
> > >> something to disrupt
> > >> >>> that. through the
> > >> >>> democratic national convention
> > mobilizations
> > >> met sandra de
> > >> >>> la loza,
> > >> >>> working again with her, marc,
> > christina and
> > >> ryan griffis
> > >> >>> and robby
> > >> >>> herbst on collectively organized
> and
> > >> community-based
> > >> >>> projects the 2004
> > >> >>> october surprise october
> surprise
> > >> >>>
> http://www.theoctobersurprise.org/
> > >> >>> and journal of aesthetics &
> > protest
> > >> >>> http://www.joaap.org/ starting
> in
> > >> >>> 2001. the curator at the L.A.
> museum
> > of
> > >> contemporary art
> > >> >>> who organized
> > >> >>> the experimental exercise of
> freedom
> > (with
> > >> rina carvajal)
> > >> >>> needed an
> > >> >>> assistant— i was able to
> research
> > and write
> > >> about artists
> > >> >>> from
> > >> >>> central, south america and italy
> if i
> > held my
> > >> cards to my
> > >> >>> chest.
> > >> >>> actually, i was more like a
> child at
> > the table
> > >> who would
> > >> >>> reemerge
> > >> >>> occasionally sticky with
> cobwebs.
> > cards can
> > >> fit in your
> > >> >>> back pocket
> > >> >>> depending on who / where you are
> > perceived to
> > >> be. the
> > >> >>> emphasis on
> > >> >>> institutional critique at
> california
> > institute
> > >> of the arts
> > >> >>> was
> > >> >>> grounded even as it was too
> narrowly
> > >> circumscribed. met
> > >> >>> etcetera last
> > >> >>> october without a joint, sadly.
> first
> > saw
> > >> their work in
> > >> >>> another
> > >> >>> institutional context at the
> centro
> > cultural
> > >> de tijuana at
> > >> >>> inSITE
> > >> >>> 2005. bill kelly and sandra were
> > there as
> > >> well. sunday
> > >> >>> morning as
> > >> >>> hurricane katrina wound toward
> new
> > orleans
> > >> bill kelly,
> > >> >>> sandra and i
> > >> >>> sat the golden glow of the
> > haudenschildGarage
> > >> listening to
> > >> >>> what i
> > >> >>> found fucked approaches to
> > collectivity,
> > >> mobility and
> > >> >>> 'cultural'
> > >> >>> exchange. everyone was wearing
> white
> > linen
> > >> except sandra
> > >> >>> and me who
> > >> >>> sat talking loudly shit (like
> > children) in the
> > >> back.
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> http://www.insite05.org/internal.php?pid=17-357
> > women are
> > >> >>> among those
> > >> >>> compelled to learn early the
> many
> > ways and to
> > >> what extent
> > >> >>> representation and invisibility
> are
> > useful.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> can 'we' identify
> material
> > conditions
> > >> that urgently
> > >> >>> need to be
> > >> >>> addressed w/out representing
> others?
> > this is
> > >> an open
> > >> >>> question and one
> > >> >>> we work from and through every
> day.
> > i'm on
> > >> an overpass
> > >> >>> with berries
> > >> >>> falling out of my mouth.
> precarity
> > gives way
> > >> to starvation
> > >> >>> at some
> > >> >>> point and i would like to
> address
> > that. the
> > >> black panther
> > >> >>> party
> > >> >>> breakfast program is art.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> in addition to 'post
> > politics' what is
> > >> meant by
> > >> >>> 'post industrial' at
> > >> >>> this moment?
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> sorry, I know I'm not
> following
> > form
> > >> handing threads
> > >> >>> back in a tangled
> > >> >>> sticky ball.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
> > >> >>> empyre forum
> > >> >>> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > >> >>> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Yahoo! Encuentros.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Ahora encontrar pareja es mucho más
> > fácil,
> > >> probá el nuevo Yahoo! Encuentros
> > >>
> > http://yahoo.cupidovirtual.com/servlet/NewRegistration
> > >> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > >> >> empyre forum
> > >> >> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > >> >> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >> >
> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> > Make Windows Vista more reliable and
> secure
> > with
> > >> Windows Vista Service Pack 1. Learn more.
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > >> With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts
> travel
> > with
> > >> you.
> > >>
> >
> http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_mobile_052008_______________________________________________
> > >> empyre forum
> > >> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > >> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >
> > >
> > >      Tarjeta de crédito Yahoo! de Banco
> Supervielle.
> > > Solicitá tu nueva Tarjeta de crédito. De tu PC
> > directo a tu casa. www.tuprimeratarjeta.com.ar
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > empyre forum
> > > empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jennifer Flores Sternad
> > 303.204.0003 (m)
> > 213.483.6050 (h)
> 
> 
>      Yahoo! Encuentros.
> 
> Ahora encontrar pareja es mucho más fácil, probá el
> nuevo Yahoo!
> Encuentros
> http://yahoo.cupidovirtual.com/servlet/NewRegistration
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jennifer Flores Sternad
> 303.204.0003 (m)
> 213.483.6050 (h)
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre

      Tarjeta de crédito Yahoo! de Banco Supervielle.
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