[-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Sally Silvers]

Ok, signing off on our week of empyre at 11:30 pm.
Thanks Murat for inviting  me and thanks to all for the exchanges.

Sally

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
> Hi Sally,
>
> "... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in
> creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for
> instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'.  It made
> me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
> planet disasters."
>
> Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images (or
> languages) in the web with the reality behind them.
>
> "Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same
> danger.
>
>
> "... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film
> (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)...."
>
> That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film seems
> to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.
>
> Ciao,
> Murat
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
>> reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
>> and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
>> visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
>> go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).
>>
>> Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
>> Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
>> longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
>> End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose
>> abstractions are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure
>> abstract visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the
>> words and have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference
>> between visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in
>> which I find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.
>>
>> I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.
>> It always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of
>> the expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional
>> instrument.  Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound
>> is the same as playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear
>> live acoustic or plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for
>> that. But when it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want
>> something visual to go along with it and thus a genre was born.
>>
>> Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
>> situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
>> 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?
>>
>>  I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by Kay
>> Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
>> words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
>> with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
>> didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
>> design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
>> Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
>> to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
>> this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
>> what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
>> gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
>> so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
>> remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
>> because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).
>>
>> Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
>> volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
>> Foucaultian sense?
>>
>> Sally
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and
>>> Chris sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual
>>> Reality.  I discovered that most of the universities that currently have
>>> departments devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as
>>> their social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they
>>> are most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
>>> actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
>>> flesh'.  It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more
>>> to human or planet disasters.  Just like photographs can shock at first but
>>> then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses.  Could it make
>>> it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide
>>> disasters are brought into our living room?
>>>
>>> That's an aside, but I'm going to explore the possibilities of a
>>> movement residency with one of these departments.  Can you imagine feeling
>>> like you are dancing with Fred Astaire, or in the movie, The Red Shoes,
>>> which has some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a
>>> fan of ballet particularly).  Or being in one of my dances? Apparently it's
>>> really easy to get motion sickness from VR so I'm curious about
>>> advancements on that front too.
>>>
>>> Sally
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Craig,  Happy to have a link to explore & connect with.  I'm
>>>> aware that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest.  Something to
>>>> overcome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper <csaper at umbc.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>> Sally
>>>>>
>>>>> You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of
>>>>> movement notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking
>>>>> for, but not finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt
>>>>> body”
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [
>>>>> https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/ ] … work that
>>>>> uses Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier
>>>>> generation of experimental animators — especially Sky David?
>>>>>
>>>>> The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is
>>>>> probably stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want
>>>>> the “documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use
>>>>> dancers to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to
>>>>> say — it is too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical
>>>>> essay into “dance-poems”
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>> Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths.  But...
>>>>>  hope everyone  who celebrated had a great one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and
>>>>> music projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a  dance
>>>>> piece (right after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns  to make the connection
>>>>> between nuns who were the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god
>>>>> and celibacy in order to gain access to education & to avoid forced
>>>>> pregnancy and motherhood — & the cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based
>>>>> dualities.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that
>>>>> Chris mentions as being so influential for him as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays
>>>>>
>>>>> In my dance (*Strike Me Lighting*) the first half was devoted to nuns
>>>>> and the 2nd half to cyborgs.  I remember it was much easier to set in
>>>>> motion nuns than it was cyborgs.  All the kneeling, contemplating,
>>>>> in-fighting, and undercover sex, so to speak, had more oomph than bodies
>>>>> with mechanical parts.  The stiff robot move gets old fast.  I ended up
>>>>> having to use a lot of photographs from books on cyborgs and spatializing
>>>>> the moves with things like star constellation floor patterns.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find this to be true online as well.  The body may be the last thing
>>>>> to be made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated form.
>>>>> Unless you think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I don't as
>>>>> they mostly seem like a translation of the body into something to sell
>>>>> music or glamorize some other product. Of course there are some exceptions
>>>>> to this as when the form of video and the form of dance/movement make a new
>>>>> concept -- when the language of each is not diminished. But most of the
>>>>> dance on film or via computer that I've seen seems like documentation or
>>>>> romanticized body angles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live.  (well maybe
>>>>> toddlers & animals get a pass).  There is not yet a way to transform the
>>>>> most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video
>>>>> action.There is clumsy software that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly
>>>>> works with given movement combinations and vocabulary and allows you to
>>>>> recombine or select parts of the body, but it's not that easy to use to
>>>>> make something interesting for the computer itself; it's mostly a tool for
>>>>> rehearsal.
>>>>>
>>>>> When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and
>>>>> digital art could be without it seeming gimmicky.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered
>>>>> electronically by dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting
>>>>> light/sensor points on the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very
>>>>> pretty), but so far I have not seen or heard of anything that would allow
>>>>> actual interaction or that makes chance or algorithms  very available or
>>>>> interesting.  I'm waiting for virtual reality to at least make it more real
>>>>> and felt for the viewer because 3-d has been somewhat of a bust.  I have
>>>>> hopes for all these things but as of yet, nothing is as appealing to me as
>>>>> actually working on the live body.  The computer is a luddite when it comes
>>>>> to dance/choreography.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up —
>>>>> mostly for managing the business side of a dance school!
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies,
>>>>> but I still remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that
>>>>> registers gravity  I'm waiting though; I'm eager for more knowledge on the
>>>>> possibilities of digital dance, in the way so many possibilities have been
>>>>> organized for digital poetry/language and digital music/sound.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Silvers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>> Chris, first, happy Thanksgiving to you and to all the others, at
>>>>>> least the people living in the United States. Also thank you for your
>>>>>> thoughtful answers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, for a short moment at least, the idea of making Empyre like a
>>>>>> 1990's listserv was intentional, ideas coming from different directions,
>>>>>> the excitement of not knowing where to turn next, etc. Those lists were
>>>>>> meandering, argumentative, even sometimes hostile; but very productive. My
>>>>>> purpose has been to project a sense of what we miss, what the web has
>>>>>> become.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in
>>>>>> fascinating ways full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became
>>>>>> somewhat of a technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction
>>>>>> (others definitely did), though not anymore..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The contradiction (in a positive sense) I am referring to is not in
>>>>>> your involvement in technology as a poet. After all, all of us as artists
>>>>>> or poets use technology. in some way or another, be it a pencil or a
>>>>>> computer. Rather, I am referring to, as I see it, an interesting
>>>>>> contradiction (or tension) in your ideals/impulses. On the one hand,
>>>>>> reading your *Prehistoric Digital Poetry*. I sensed a great interest
>>>>>> in developing the capabilities of the computer progressively to create a
>>>>>> poetry *unique to the medium* from word to image to movement to
>>>>>> sound, and their combination  --finally creating a poetic form which is
>>>>>> both absorbing and ephemeral and can be read practically in endless ways
>>>>>> depending on the choices the "reader" makes. In that synthesis, the digital
>>>>>> poem resembles very much a computer game where words/letters are one
>>>>>> element. Towards the end of the book, I remember asking myself what
>>>>>> differentiates that digital poem from a game (not a play). I don't think I
>>>>>> found a satisfactory answer in the book.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is basically that contradiction I am referring to. Perhaps, since
>>>>>> the writing of that book, you have found an answer and, therefore, see no
>>>>>> contradiction. A sense of play has always been part of poetry, but is a
>>>>>> game the same thing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that
>>>>>> make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple levels
>>>>>> (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software
>>>>>> standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here I think we differ. Failure for me is a residue that remains in
>>>>>> the poem after it is "finished." It is integral to the kind of poetry or
>>>>>> poetics I write. Failure or success of communication, obtaining or failing
>>>>>> to obtain rights are different. I know for you the ephemeral quality of
>>>>>> internet sites or changing computer software are major issues. They are
>>>>>> what make digital poetry (or any digital art) temporary, subject to time.
>>>>>> Perhaps that is the failure that haunts digital works. I don't know. You
>>>>>> tell me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a
>>>>>> general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen
>>>>>> on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
>>>>>> be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I understand correctly, the basic creative part of a digital work
>>>>>> occurs in the programming of the software where the visionary or poetic
>>>>>> impulse comes into play. If the original idea changes, the program has to
>>>>>> be altered "on the fly";  or, I assume, sometimes the idea is bent by the
>>>>>> exigencies of the program. If so, how does the idea of perfection come into
>>>>>> play? In what sense is the code always perfect?  How do you know?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... there are ways to organize expression & project material
>>>>>> without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s “perfection”.
>>>>>> These tools are there to help us do what we want..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ☺so the code is perfect and imperfect (or perfect with loop holes). I
>>>>>> like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... the coding allows the sound-image-text to be rendered
>>>>>> improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an instrument, or speak, and have
>>>>>> the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger onscreen or audible events...."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you determine the triggered on screen or audible events are
>>>>>> random? Do you mean it feels random to the viewer/listener?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... Plus, programs like javascript enable impromptu, interactive
>>>>>> database stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot but project a
>>>>>> sense of spontaneity and uniqueness..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are I think touching a very crucial issue. "A sense of spontaneity
>>>>>> and uniqueness" is an effect, basically a rhetorical trope. It can be
>>>>>> premeditated, created through hard labor or through a code. "Improvisation"
>>>>>> is an act. Something is either improvised or not. For instance, in his
>>>>>> performances, Taylor is improvising, not creating a sense of it. Doesn't
>>>>>> the difference matter?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... he idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human &
>>>>>> machine, made (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that
>>>>>> uses digital media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. ...."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris, here we completely agree with each other. My poem *The
>>>>>> Spiritual Life of Replicants* is precisely such a work. In Blade
>>>>>> Runner --the film on which the poem is built (by the way, Blade Runner is
>>>>>> the last Hollywood film that uses no digital special effects)-- the
>>>>>> ultimate perfect code that no technology can break or contravene is
>>>>>> mortality, to which even the cyborgs are subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris, thank you again for your thoughtful responses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be continued...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Funkhouser, Christopher T. <
>>>>>> christopher.t.funkhouser at njit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Murat,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I couldn’t delve into anything on Thanksgiving, & hope everyone had
>>>>>>> a blessed day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, let’s see… this discussion reminds me of being on listservs in
>>>>>>> the 90s: lots to think about, hard to keep up with everything, & difficult
>>>>>>> to elaborate as much as one would like, or could in a face-to-face
>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating
>>>>>>> ways full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a
>>>>>>> technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely
>>>>>>> did), though not anymore.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *But how often starting a work of art do we no where we are going
>>>>>>> (at least the kind of work I assume interests you and me)? We evolve,
>>>>>>> basically try to discover the work. In that way, intention is not a useful
>>>>>>> concept for me. To me failure has to do with gaps in a work, loose or
>>>>>>> unexplained parts though the work is presented as complete. In that way,
>>>>>>> failure is related more to a lack of total answer.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Discovering the work is a good way to describe what usually happens,
>>>>>>> but working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a general
>>>>>>> vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen on-the-fly.
>>>>>>> In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can be/is extended
>>>>>>> if to many big changes have to be made on the fly. If I don’t set up some
>>>>>>> sort of general intention, though (as in a yoga class), I’d likely have
>>>>>>> problems! Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that
>>>>>>> make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple levels
>>>>>>> (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software
>>>>>>> standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave))
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *What is interesting in what you do is that, while you "accept" the
>>>>>>> absolute perfection of the code, a lot of the artists that interest you and
>>>>>>> you get deeply involved with, including your own projects, are open ended,
>>>>>>> improvisational, "evanescent" so to speak, such as Cecil Tayloror the
>>>>>>> wonderful piece of music "Wedge" you linked us to in your post.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do try to keep an open perspective on things, & working with
>>>>>>> programming/design software there are ways to organize expression & project
>>>>>>> material without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s
>>>>>>> “perfection”. These tools are there to help us do what we want, & there are
>>>>>>> ways to use them that allow invention & expansion rather than confine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *In what relation do you see the perfection of the digital code (its
>>>>>>> "unforgiving" divine reality :) ) and your improvisational aesthetics? I
>>>>>>> know in in your book you say that the poetry created digitally is
>>>>>>> essentially ephemeral, and the artist must acknowledge it. *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I definitely accept ephemerality as a given, & expect most digital
>>>>>>> works—if not cared for/maintained with some dedication—will become unusable
>>>>>>> somewhere down the line (has already happened, to me & others--a lot),
>>>>>>> which in many cases is really unfortunate. I see it as part of the
>>>>>>> conditions of postmodern poetry. David Antin's skywriting piece disappeared
>>>>>>> even more quickly!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> fwiw, the thing about the work I’m doing now (for the past 5 years
>>>>>>> or so), with sound and image, is that the coding allows the
>>>>>>> sound-image-text to be rendered improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play
>>>>>>> an instrument, or speak, and have the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger
>>>>>>> onscreen or audible events. Once I discovered how to make this happen,
>>>>>>> making improvised digital poems became possible. Plus, programs like
>>>>>>> javascript enable impromptu, interactive database stylings that may not be
>>>>>>> improvised on-the-spot but project a sense of spontaneity and
>>>>>>> uniqueness—they seem improvised (esp. if the user/viewer is allowed to
>>>>>>> input content). &, btw, I did end up posting some of the new work I've
>>>>>>> done, mapping voice to instrumentation, a couple of days ago at
>>>>>>> https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/page-33-infiltration (another
>>>>>>> approach, where instrument drives animation in performance is up at
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PkkqOzCf4 or
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si30Iajz4Zs (a collab with Amy &
>>>>>>> Sophia Sobers, whose projections do not appear unfortunately)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I was thinking about glitch after my post yesterday, but even in
>>>>>>> something that is glitch (in any form), the code functions properly.
>>>>>>> usually these works are aberrations imposed by composer, hardware, or
>>>>>>> software. but it is the surface that contains something
>>>>>>> unexpected/distorted. the code is *able *to do what it is
>>>>>>> instructed/informed to do. glitch is a great cyborgian form, whether
>>>>>>> intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To me, Chris, the above passage reminds me of Medieval (Christian)
>>>>>>> discourse on God and the existence of evil-- [image: ☺] OK! But the
>>>>>>> stakes are not so elevated. I was just rambling on, probably ineffectively,
>>>>>>> a certain topic. As far as making stuff goes, I never think of myself or
>>>>>>> anyone else as taking on the role of god, though I do like the highlighted
>>>>>>> passage of your post below!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> God's design is often inscrutable, but always there. Humanity can
>>>>>>> only experience the surface --and sees evil (unexpected/distorted): "What
>>>>>>> is the difference between God and virtual God?" "Virtual God is
>>>>>>> real." It's the software programmer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you elaborate on the following sentence: "glitch is a great
>>>>>>> cyborgian form, whether intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure. One of the first “theorists” I ever read was Donna Haraway, in
>>>>>>> 1991 when we were both living in Santa Cruz. Her Manifesto about Simians,
>>>>>>> Cyborgs, & Women really knocked me out & I kind of took it to heart & mind.
>>>>>>> The idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human & machine, made
>>>>>>> (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that uses digital
>>>>>>> media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. That was the reference
>>>>>>> point. Glitch can of course be done non-digitally (with scissors, paint,
>>>>>>> arms, *quod libet*) so it’s not exclusive to computers. I know a
>>>>>>> few people who, using software (as well as output manipulation) do
>>>>>>> intentional glitch work; othertimes, it happens by accident & comes to
>>>>>>> eyes, ears, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’m sure I didn’t say enough, or address everything, but that’s it
>>>>>>> for the moment. Bests, CF
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>> Bruce, you have hooked up with the Project ten years earlier than
>>>>>>>> me. I had just returned from living in London for almost two years (and I
>>>>>>>> had said to my wife Karen that if I don't see another beautiful green park
>>>>>>>> in my life I'll be happy). I wanted to go to a poetry event in New York. It
>>>>>>>> was Wednesday, and at the Project Paul Auster was presenting his
>>>>>>>> anthology of French poetry that he had edited with multiple readers (to me
>>>>>>>> the most memorable was Armand Schwerner reading his Michaux
>>>>>>>> translations). That was it. I became friends with Bob Rosenthal
>>>>>>>> and Simon Pettet who had introduced Paul, and we created The
>>>>>>>> Committee for International Poetry. That was another adventure.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with you about the ups and down of the Project. We all
>>>>>>>> heard our share of boring stuff there. I did doze off occasionally but the
>>>>>>>> place always seemed to come through. A lot of poets, artists came from
>>>>>>>> different parts of the States and the world and learned from and
>>>>>>>> collaborated with each other.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What the Project has been doing is what the Web is doing now. I
>>>>>>>> have had long term collaborations with artists over the years whom I have
>>>>>>>> never met. That is the huge positive of the digital world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "We did want to focus attention on language itself as the medium,
>>>>>>>> but I'm not ready to embrace some of your characterization:  words &
>>>>>>>> letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize them in other
>>>>>>>> ways beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for us, the
>>>>>>>> author's personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric
>>>>>>>> expectations). We tended to want the readers' experience at the center —
>>>>>>>> which cuts against some of this binary of yours about the sensual,
>>>>>>>> movement-based vs. logical aspects of language"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bruce, when you say "We tended to want the readers' experience at
>>>>>>>> the center," are you saying anything different than saying "I want the text
>>>>>>>> at the center," the reader reading the text? The question interests me
>>>>>>>> because in my essay The Peripheral Space of Photography, I assert that what
>>>>>>>> is important in a photograph is not the photographer's focus (framing), but
>>>>>>>> what escapes that framing. The real dialogue occurs between the
>>>>>>>> watcher of the photograph and what is in front of the lens (human or a
>>>>>>>> landscape, etc.). If, as I think you are to saying, it is the reader (and
>>>>>>>> not purely the text), then even the "reveries" the reader builds around the
>>>>>>>> text reading it become part of it. Is that not so?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Logical" was an unfortunate choice of words, on my part. I am more
>>>>>>>> interested in the distinction between predicated idea (therefore fixed) and
>>>>>>>> thought as process (therefore movement). One can have thought and/in
>>>>>>>> movement (that's what Eda is). In that way, thought is sensual.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "So if there's an "exchange" it's a mutual bending (which might be
>>>>>>>> way too mutually disruptive to warrant being called a "synthesis"). Maybe
>>>>>>>> that's more like the relationship between a 'dialect' & an 'official'
>>>>>>>> language — [and by the way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a
>>>>>>>> synthesis]?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, mutually bending and disruptive, not a synthesis. That's what
>>>>>>>> a true, transforming translation does, bends, alters both languages,
>>>>>>>> discovers potentialities in them. Walter Benjamin does see a synthesis in
>>>>>>>> the process when he writes that in a translation "A" does not move to "B"
>>>>>>>> but both move to a third place "C ," which he calls "ideal
>>>>>>>> language." Some people believe Benjamin was being a "poet" (poet in the
>>>>>>>> pejorative sense) here. "Ideal language" is a mystical fantasy. I am not
>>>>>>>> one of them.  I believe it is part of the core of his very original concept
>>>>>>>> of translation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not necessarily. I believe in an art or poetry of continuous
>>>>>>>> dialectic. The Talmud, where the interpretations of  a holy passage are
>>>>>>>> never resolved and remain always multiple, is such a text.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be continued (inviting others to join).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Andrews <andrews at fordham.edu
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi all — finally figured out a little more about the interface
>>>>>>>>> [one of my least favorite words] & receiving messages intriguingly dated
>>>>>>>>> many hours ahead — from Australia — so it's already Thanksgiving the day
>>>>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, on Thanksgiving [with recent political events, e.g. the
>>>>>>>>> trumpocalypse, having disrupted so many things I was hoping for & hoping to
>>>>>>>>> give thanks for], Murat, for your Intro.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice to think of the Poetry Project as a site for adventurous
>>>>>>>>> exploring — certainly it's where I first had a chance to talk with you
>>>>>>>>> (often about matters political, Turkey, etc. — I started going there, &
>>>>>>>>> getting to read every couple years, right after arriving in NYC in 1975, to
>>>>>>>>> take a job as a Political Science professor [American Imperialism my
>>>>>>>>> specialty] wch lasted 38 of the 41 years since).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The so-called 'Language Poets' actually tended to question whether
>>>>>>>>> the consensus 'New York School/Beat' styles honored at the PProject was
>>>>>>>>> really still devoted to adventurously "exploring the outer limits and
>>>>>>>>> possibilities" of the medium: our aesthetics had taken shape in the early
>>>>>>>>> to mid 1970s, mostly outside of NY & hashed out in the mail rather than
>>>>>>>>> face to face in any community 'scene'. We did want to focus attention on
>>>>>>>>> language itself as the medium, but I'm not ready to embrace some of your
>>>>>>>>> characterization:  words & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to
>>>>>>>>> organize them in other ways beside what they were pointing to (which was
>>>>>>>>> too often, for us, the author's personalizing experience or expressiveness
>>>>>>>>> or traditional lyric expectations). We tended to want the readers'
>>>>>>>>> experience at the center — which cuts against some of this binary of yours
>>>>>>>>> about the sensual, movement-based vs. logical aspects of language. If I had
>>>>>>>>> to choose sides there, I'd always go with movement & the sensory, as a way
>>>>>>>>> to 'volatilize' & 'capacitate' its potential readers; my own writing
>>>>>>>>> certainly doesn't get much acclaim for being "logical". But I'd rather step
>>>>>>>>> outside any polemical wrangling about the poetry we do & keep things
>>>>>>>>> focused on the digital front:  for instance, whether an online presentation
>>>>>>>>> tends to help or hinder the kinds of reading that put movement & the senses
>>>>>>>>> in the forefront.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On your question:  I don't think that verbal language is basically
>>>>>>>>> a self-referential system; instead, it seems more like a messy hybrid. And
>>>>>>>>> so is what happens via the computer & the web: this may be distinctive as a
>>>>>>>>> linguistic/communicative arrangement, but that's not exactly what I see in
>>>>>>>>> the idea of it creating its own system. So if there's an "exchange" it's a
>>>>>>>>> mutual bending (which might be way too mutually disruptive to warrant being
>>>>>>>>> called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more like the relationship between a
>>>>>>>>> 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by the way, doesn't "the
>>>>>>>>> dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>> I have known these week's guest participants or been familiar
>>>>>>>>>> with their works for years. They have all been, directly or indirectly,
>>>>>>>>>> part of the Poetry Project poetry and art community. A spirit of adventure
>>>>>>>>>> exploring the outer limits and possibilities each of his or her own media
>>>>>>>>>> that has been the characteristic of the place since 1960's for fifty years
>>>>>>>>>> permeates all of them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I met Chris Funkhauser first in 1994 during a Poetry Project
>>>>>>>>>> symposium on "Revolutionary Poetry." He and his friend Belle Gironde --both
>>>>>>>>>> University of Albany students at the time-- along with three other young
>>>>>>>>>> people had organized an "unofficial" workshop on "Poetry and Technology"
>>>>>>>>>> that, if I remember correctly, had set up its tent out in the garden of the
>>>>>>>>>> church. I was a member of the final panel that presented overviews of the
>>>>>>>>>> symposium. As part of my preparation, I visited the workshop. I was so
>>>>>>>>>> struck by what they were doing, by the spirit of Dada in their manifesto of
>>>>>>>>>> the virtual --yes, the possibilities of a virtual poetry was infused with
>>>>>>>>>> Dada mojo at the time-- that I spent a final, significant portion of my
>>>>>>>>>> talk on that workshop. I felt what the workshop was saying contained a
>>>>>>>>>> significant portion of the revolutionary spirit the symposium was searching
>>>>>>>>>> for. Chris and I remained friends ever since. Interestingly, Bruce Andrews,
>>>>>>>>>> the second guest participant this week, was another member of that panel
>>>>>>>>>> also.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here are two passages from "Takes or Mis-takes from the
>>>>>>>>>> Revolutionary Symposium, The Poetry Project, May 5-8, 1994," the second
>>>>>>>>>> being its ending. The talk consisted of quotations from the symposium
>>>>>>>>>> (peppered with my reactions):
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "What's the difference between God and virtual God?"
>>>>>>>>>> "Virtual God is real." It's the software programer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "From The Poetry and Technology workshop: 'Give free shit to lure
>>>>>>>>>> them…. Commodity lives," Eric Swensen, the 'Enema' of Necro Enema
>>>>>>>>>> Amalgamated, producers of the manifesto BLAM!"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Andrew was with Charles Bernstein the co-editor of the
>>>>>>>>>> ground breaking poetry magazine L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E which, as the "=" signs in
>>>>>>>>>> the title implies, ushered a new attitude towards poetry and language.
>>>>>>>>>> Letters, words relate more to each other than to a referential point
>>>>>>>>>> outside. The result was the transforming (and influential on younger poets)
>>>>>>>>>> poetry movement Language School of which Bruce is a key member. As a poet,
>>>>>>>>>> I have had serious disagreements with strict (in my view, almost
>>>>>>>>>> fundementalist) take on language the movement embodies. I come from the
>>>>>>>>>> East (Turkey). Though equally exploring, my view of language is different,
>>>>>>>>>> more sensual, based on movement than logic. I tried to bring these
>>>>>>>>>> qualities to English language and American poetry though my concept of Eda.
>>>>>>>>>> On the other, I must admit the poetry of my friends in the States
>>>>>>>>>> inevitably bent the direction of my work. I believe Eda will do, and is
>>>>>>>>>> already doing, the same even though though the effect is not totally
>>>>>>>>>> visible yet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is one question I  would like very much Bruce to explore,
>>>>>>>>>> if at all possible, among many others. The computer seems to create its own
>>>>>>>>>> linguistic/communicative system. If verbal language also is basically a
>>>>>>>>>> self-referential system, how do you see the possibility of exchange between
>>>>>>>>>> these two entities? Is it at all, possible? If so, what has to bend to
>>>>>>>>>> accommodate the other? In other words, is the relationship towards
>>>>>>>>>> synthesis or always dialectical?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I saw Sally Silvers dance for the first time years ago during a
>>>>>>>>>> Poetry Project New Years' Day Marathon. I was immediate struck by the
>>>>>>>>>> uniqueness and originality of her dance. Over the years I tried to answer
>>>>>>>>>> that question because I felt it said something important, not only about
>>>>>>>>>> but beyond dance. Gradually, a picture emerged. Even watching avant-garde
>>>>>>>>>> or "experimental" dancers, I always feel that their movements are rehashed,
>>>>>>>>>> coming out of a repertoire of established avant grade movements. There was
>>>>>>>>>> nothing of that in Sally Silver's dancing. Every movement was itself,
>>>>>>>>>> nothing  more, nothing less. The movements had a solidity, embodying the
>>>>>>>>>> reality of gravity that run through them and shaped them. That earth bound
>>>>>>>>>> clarity was a thrilling thing to see. I am looking forward to what she has
>>>>>>>>>> to say about dance or anything else.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All the Empyre members, welcome to the fourth week.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Dr. Christopher T. Funkhouser
>>>>>>> Program Director, Communication and Media
>>>>>>> Department of Humanities
>>>>>>> New Jersey Institute of Technology
>>>>>>> University Heights
>>>>>>> Newark, NJ 07102
>>>>>>> http://web.njit.edu/~funkhous
>>>>>>> funkhous at njit.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> empyre forum
>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>
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