[-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Bruce Andrews]

Signing off as well, thanks to Murat & Sally & Christopher & responders
Posted a final piece of poetry yesterday; drop me a line to stay in touch.
Bruce

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
> Ok, signing off on our week of empyre at 11:30 pm.
> Thanks Murat for inviting  me and thanks to all for the exchanges.
>
> Sally
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> Hi Sally,
>>
>> "... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in
>> creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for
>> instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'.  It made
>> me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
>> planet disasters."
>>
>> Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images (or
>> languages) in the web with the reality behind them.
>>
>> "Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same
>> danger.
>>
>>
>> "... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film
>> (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)...."
>>
>> That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film seems
>> to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Murat
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
>>> reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
>>> and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
>>> visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
>>> go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).
>>>
>>> Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
>>> Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
>>> longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
>>> End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose
>>> abstractions are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure
>>> abstract visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the
>>> words and have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference
>>> between visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in
>>> which I find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.
>>>
>>> I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.
>>> It always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of
>>> the expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional
>>> instrument.  Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound
>>> is the same as playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear
>>> live acoustic or plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for
>>> that. But when it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want
>>> something visual to go along with it and thus a genre was born.
>>>
>>> Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
>>> situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
>>> 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?
>>>
>>>  I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by
>>> Kay Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
>>> words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
>>> with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
>>> didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
>>> design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
>>> Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
>>> to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
>>> this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
>>> what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
>>> gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
>>> so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
>>> remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
>>> because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).
>>>
>>> Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
>>> volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
>>> Foucaultian sense?
>>>
>>> Sally
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and
>>>> Chris sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual
>>>> Reality.  I discovered that most of the universities that currently have
>>>> departments devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as
>>>> their social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they
>>>> are most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
>>>> actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
>>>> flesh'.  It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more
>>>> to human or planet disasters.  Just like photographs can shock at first but
>>>> then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses.  Could it make
>>>> it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide
>>>> disasters are brought into our living room?
>>>>
>>>> That's an aside, but I'm going to explore the possibilities of a
>>>> movement residency with one of these departments.  Can you imagine feeling
>>>> like you are dancing with Fred Astaire, or in the movie, The Red Shoes,
>>>> which has some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a
>>>> fan of ballet particularly).  Or being in one of my dances? Apparently it's
>>>> really easy to get motion sickness from VR so I'm curious about
>>>> advancements on that front too.
>>>>
>>>> Sally
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Craig,  Happy to have a link to explore & connect with.  I'm
>>>>> aware that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest.  Something to
>>>>> overcome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper <csaper at umbc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>> Sally
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of
>>>>>> movement notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking
>>>>>> for, but not finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt
>>>>>> body”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [
>>>>>> https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/ ] … work that
>>>>>> uses Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier
>>>>>> generation of experimental animators — especially Sky David?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is
>>>>>> probably stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want
>>>>>> the “documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use
>>>>>> dancers to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to
>>>>>> say — it is too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical
>>>>>> essay into “dance-poems”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>> Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths.  But...
>>>>>>  hope everyone  who celebrated had a great one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and
>>>>>> music projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a  dance
>>>>>> piece (right after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns  to make the connection
>>>>>> between nuns who were the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god
>>>>>> and celibacy in order to gain access to education & to avoid forced
>>>>>> pregnancy and motherhood — & the cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based
>>>>>> dualities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that
>>>>>> Chris mentions as being so influential for him as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my dance (*Strike Me Lighting*) the first half was devoted to
>>>>>> nuns and the 2nd half to cyborgs.  I remember it was much easier to set in
>>>>>> motion nuns than it was cyborgs.  All the kneeling, contemplating,
>>>>>> in-fighting, and undercover sex, so to speak, had more oomph than bodies
>>>>>> with mechanical parts.  The stiff robot move gets old fast.  I ended up
>>>>>> having to use a lot of photographs from books on cyborgs and spatializing
>>>>>> the moves with things like star constellation floor patterns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find this to be true online as well.  The body may be the last
>>>>>> thing to be made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated
>>>>>> form. Unless you think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I
>>>>>> don't as they mostly seem like a translation of the body into something to
>>>>>> sell music or glamorize some other product. Of course there are some
>>>>>> exceptions to this as when the form of video and the form of dance/movement
>>>>>> make a new concept -- when the language of each is not diminished. But most
>>>>>> of the dance on film or via computer that I've seen seems like
>>>>>> documentation or romanticized body angles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live.  (well maybe
>>>>>> toddlers & animals get a pass).  There is not yet a way to transform the
>>>>>> most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video
>>>>>> action.There is clumsy software that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly
>>>>>> works with given movement combinations and vocabulary and allows you to
>>>>>> recombine or select parts of the body, but it's not that easy to use to
>>>>>> make something interesting for the computer itself; it's mostly a tool for
>>>>>> rehearsal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and
>>>>>> digital art could be without it seeming gimmicky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered
>>>>>> electronically by dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting
>>>>>> light/sensor points on the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very
>>>>>> pretty), but so far I have not seen or heard of anything that would allow
>>>>>> actual interaction or that makes chance or algorithms  very available or
>>>>>> interesting.  I'm waiting for virtual reality to at least make it more real
>>>>>> and felt for the viewer because 3-d has been somewhat of a bust.  I have
>>>>>> hopes for all these things but as of yet, nothing is as appealing to me as
>>>>>> actually working on the live body.  The computer is a luddite when it comes
>>>>>> to dance/choreography.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up —
>>>>>> mostly for managing the business side of a dance school!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies,
>>>>>> but I still remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that
>>>>>> registers gravity  I'm waiting though; I'm eager for more knowledge on the
>>>>>> possibilities of digital dance, in the way so many possibilities have been
>>>>>> organized for digital poetry/language and digital music/sound.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sally Silvers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>> Chris, first, happy Thanksgiving to you and to all the others, at
>>>>>>> least the people living in the United States. Also thank you for your
>>>>>>> thoughtful answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, for a short moment at least, the idea of making Empyre like a
>>>>>>> 1990's listserv was intentional, ideas coming from different directions,
>>>>>>> the excitement of not knowing where to turn next, etc. Those lists were
>>>>>>> meandering, argumentative, even sometimes hostile; but very productive. My
>>>>>>> purpose has been to project a sense of what we miss, what the web has
>>>>>>> become.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "... I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in
>>>>>>> fascinating ways full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became
>>>>>>> somewhat of a technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction
>>>>>>> (others definitely did), though not anymore..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The contradiction (in a positive sense) I am referring to is not in
>>>>>>> your involvement in technology as a poet. After all, all of us as artists
>>>>>>> or poets use technology. in some way or another, be it a pencil or a
>>>>>>> computer. Rather, I am referring to, as I see it, an interesting
>>>>>>> contradiction (or tension) in your ideals/impulses. On the one hand,
>>>>>>> reading your *Prehistoric Digital Poetry*. I sensed a great
>>>>>>> interest in developing the capabilities of the computer progressively to
>>>>>>> create a poetry *unique to the medium* from word to image to
>>>>>>> movement to sound, and their combination  --finally creating a poetic form
>>>>>>> which is both absorbing and ephemeral and can be read practically in
>>>>>>> endless ways depending on the choices the "reader" makes. In that
>>>>>>> synthesis, the digital poem resembles very much a computer game where
>>>>>>> words/letters are one element. Towards the end of the book, I remember
>>>>>>> asking myself what differentiates that digital poem from a game (not a
>>>>>>> play). I don't think I found a satisfactory answer in the book.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is basically that contradiction I am referring to. Perhaps, since
>>>>>>> the writing of that book, you have found an answer and, therefore, see no
>>>>>>> contradiction. A sense of play has always been part of poetry, but is a
>>>>>>> game the same thing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that
>>>>>>> make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple levels
>>>>>>> (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software
>>>>>>> standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here I think we differ. Failure for me is a residue that remains in
>>>>>>> the poem after it is "finished." It is integral to the kind of poetry or
>>>>>>> poetics I write. Failure or success of communication, obtaining or failing
>>>>>>> to obtain rights are different. I know for you the ephemeral quality of
>>>>>>> internet sites or changing computer software are major issues. They are
>>>>>>> what make digital poetry (or any digital art) temporary, subject to time.
>>>>>>> Perhaps that is the failure that haunts digital works. I don't know. You
>>>>>>> tell me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "...working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a
>>>>>>> general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen
>>>>>>> on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
>>>>>>> be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I understand correctly, the basic creative part of a digital work
>>>>>>> occurs in the programming of the software where the visionary or poetic
>>>>>>> impulse comes into play. If the original idea changes, the program has to
>>>>>>> be altered "on the fly";  or, I assume, sometimes the idea is bent by the
>>>>>>> exigencies of the program. If so, how does the idea of perfection come into
>>>>>>> play? In what sense is the code always perfect?  How do you know?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "... there are ways to organize expression & project material
>>>>>>> without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s “perfection”.
>>>>>>> These tools are there to help us do what we want..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ☺so the code is perfect and imperfect (or perfect with loop holes).
>>>>>>> I like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "... the coding allows the sound-image-text to be rendered
>>>>>>> improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an instrument, or speak, and have
>>>>>>> the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger onscreen or audible events...."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you determine the triggered on screen or audible events are
>>>>>>> random? Do you mean it feels random to the viewer/listener?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "... Plus, programs like javascript enable impromptu, interactive
>>>>>>> database stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot but project a
>>>>>>> sense of spontaneity and uniqueness..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are I think touching a very crucial issue. "A sense of
>>>>>>> spontaneity and uniqueness" is an effect, basically a rhetorical trope. It
>>>>>>> can be premeditated, created through hard labor or through a code.
>>>>>>> "Improvisation" is an act. Something is either improvised or not. For
>>>>>>> instance, in his performances, Taylor is improvising, not creating a sense
>>>>>>> of it. Doesn't the difference matter?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "... he idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human &
>>>>>>> machine, made (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that
>>>>>>> uses digital media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. ...."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris, here we completely agree with each other. My poem *The
>>>>>>> Spiritual Life of Replicants* is precisely such a work. In Blade
>>>>>>> Runner --the film on which the poem is built (by the way, Blade Runner is
>>>>>>> the last Hollywood film that uses no digital special effects)-- the
>>>>>>> ultimate perfect code that no technology can break or contravene is
>>>>>>> mortality, to which even the cyborgs are subject.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris, thank you again for your thoughtful responses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be continued...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Funkhouser, Christopher T. <
>>>>>>> christopher.t.funkhouser at njit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Murat,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I couldn’t delve into anything on Thanksgiving, & hope everyone had
>>>>>>>> a blessed day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, let’s see… this discussion reminds me of being on listservs in
>>>>>>>> the 90s: lots to think about, hard to keep up with everything, & difficult
>>>>>>>> to elaborate as much as one would like, or could in a face-to-face
>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating
>>>>>>>> ways full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a
>>>>>>>> technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely
>>>>>>>> did), though not anymore.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *But how often starting a work of art do we no where we are going
>>>>>>>> (at least the kind of work I assume interests you and me)? We evolve,
>>>>>>>> basically try to discover the work. In that way, intention is not a useful
>>>>>>>> concept for me. To me failure has to do with gaps in a work, loose or
>>>>>>>> unexplained parts though the work is presented as complete. In that way,
>>>>>>>> failure is related more to a lack of total answer.*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discovering the work is a good way to describe what usually
>>>>>>>> happens, but working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a
>>>>>>>> general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen
>>>>>>>> on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
>>>>>>>> be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly. If I
>>>>>>>> don’t set up some sort of general intention, though (as in a yoga class),
>>>>>>>> I’d likely have problems! Failure for me usually has to do with tech
>>>>>>>> issues—esp. those that make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often
>>>>>>>> & on multiple levels (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes
>>>>>>>> in OS & software standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave))
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *What is interesting in what you do is that, while you "accept" the
>>>>>>>> absolute perfection of the code, a lot of the artists that interest you and
>>>>>>>> you get deeply involved with, including your own projects, are open ended,
>>>>>>>> improvisational, "evanescent" so to speak, such as Cecil Tayloror the
>>>>>>>> wonderful piece of music "Wedge" you linked us to in your post.*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do try to keep an open perspective on things, & working with
>>>>>>>> programming/design software there are ways to organize expression & project
>>>>>>>> material without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s
>>>>>>>> “perfection”. These tools are there to help us do what we want, & there are
>>>>>>>> ways to use them that allow invention & expansion rather than confine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *In what relation do you see the perfection of the digital code
>>>>>>>> (its "unforgiving" divine reality :) ) and your improvisational aesthetics?
>>>>>>>> I know in in your book you say that the poetry created digitally is
>>>>>>>> essentially ephemeral, and the artist must acknowledge it. *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I definitely accept ephemerality as a given, & expect most digital
>>>>>>>> works—if not cared for/maintained with some dedication—will become unusable
>>>>>>>> somewhere down the line (has already happened, to me & others--a lot),
>>>>>>>> which in many cases is really unfortunate. I see it as part of the
>>>>>>>> conditions of postmodern poetry. David Antin's skywriting piece disappeared
>>>>>>>> even more quickly!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> fwiw, the thing about the work I’m doing now (for the past 5 years
>>>>>>>> or so), with sound and image, is that the coding allows the
>>>>>>>> sound-image-text to be rendered improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play
>>>>>>>> an instrument, or speak, and have the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger
>>>>>>>> onscreen or audible events. Once I discovered how to make this happen,
>>>>>>>> making improvised digital poems became possible. Plus, programs like
>>>>>>>> javascript enable impromptu, interactive database stylings that may not be
>>>>>>>> improvised on-the-spot but project a sense of spontaneity and
>>>>>>>> uniqueness—they seem improvised (esp. if the user/viewer is allowed to
>>>>>>>> input content). &, btw, I did end up posting some of the new work I've
>>>>>>>> done, mapping voice to instrumentation, a couple of days ago at
>>>>>>>> https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/page-33-infiltration (another
>>>>>>>> approach, where instrument drives animation in performance is up at
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PkkqOzCf4 or
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si30Iajz4Zs (a collab with Amy &
>>>>>>>> Sophia Sobers, whose projections do not appear unfortunately)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I was thinking about glitch after my post yesterday, but even in
>>>>>>>> something that is glitch (in any form), the code functions properly.
>>>>>>>> usually these works are aberrations imposed by composer, hardware, or
>>>>>>>> software. but it is the surface that contains something
>>>>>>>> unexpected/distorted. the code is *able *to do what it is
>>>>>>>> instructed/informed to do. glitch is a great cyborgian form, whether
>>>>>>>> intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To me, Chris, the above passage reminds me of Medieval (Christian)
>>>>>>>> discourse on God and the existence of evil-- [image: ☺] OK! But
>>>>>>>> the stakes are not so elevated. I was just rambling on, probably
>>>>>>>> ineffectively, a certain topic. As far as making stuff goes, I never think
>>>>>>>> of myself or anyone else as taking on the role of god, though I do like the
>>>>>>>> highlighted passage of your post below!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> God's design is often inscrutable, but always there. Humanity can
>>>>>>>> only experience the surface --and sees evil (unexpected/distorted): "What
>>>>>>>> is the difference between God and virtual God?" "Virtual God is
>>>>>>>> real." It's the software programmer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Could you elaborate on the following sentence: "glitch is a great
>>>>>>>> cyborgian form, whether intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure. One of the first “theorists” I ever read was Donna Haraway,
>>>>>>>> in 1991 when we were both living in Santa Cruz. Her Manifesto about
>>>>>>>> Simians, Cyborgs, & Women really knocked me out & I kind of took it to
>>>>>>>> heart & mind. The idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human &
>>>>>>>> machine, made (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that
>>>>>>>> uses digital media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. That was the
>>>>>>>> reference point. Glitch can of course be done non-digitally (with scissors,
>>>>>>>> paint, arms, *quod libet*) so it’s not exclusive to computers. I
>>>>>>>> know a few people who, using software (as well as output manipulation) do
>>>>>>>> intentional glitch work; othertimes, it happens by accident & comes to
>>>>>>>> eyes, ears, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I’m sure I didn’t say enough, or address everything, but that’s it
>>>>>>>> for the moment. Bests, CF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>> Bruce, you have hooked up with the Project ten years earlier than
>>>>>>>>> me. I had just returned from living in London for almost two years (and I
>>>>>>>>> had said to my wife Karen that if I don't see another beautiful green park
>>>>>>>>> in my life I'll be happy). I wanted to go to a poetry event in New York. It
>>>>>>>>> was Wednesday, and at the Project Paul Auster was presenting his
>>>>>>>>> anthology of French poetry that he had edited with multiple readers (to me
>>>>>>>>> the most memorable was Armand Schwerner reading his Michaux
>>>>>>>>> translations). That was it. I became friends with Bob Rosenthal
>>>>>>>>> and Simon Pettet who had introduced Paul, and we created The
>>>>>>>>> Committee for International Poetry. That was another adventure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with you about the ups and down of the Project. We all
>>>>>>>>> heard our share of boring stuff there. I did doze off occasionally but the
>>>>>>>>> place always seemed to come through. A lot of poets, artists came from
>>>>>>>>> different parts of the States and the world and learned from and
>>>>>>>>> collaborated with each other.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What the Project has been doing is what the Web is doing now. I
>>>>>>>>> have had long term collaborations with artists over the years whom I have
>>>>>>>>> never met. That is the huge positive of the digital world.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "We did want to focus attention on language itself as the medium,
>>>>>>>>> but I'm not ready to embrace some of your characterization:  words &
>>>>>>>>> letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize them in other
>>>>>>>>> ways beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for us, the
>>>>>>>>> author's personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric
>>>>>>>>> expectations). We tended to want the readers' experience at the center —
>>>>>>>>> which cuts against some of this binary of yours about the sensual,
>>>>>>>>> movement-based vs. logical aspects of language"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bruce, when you say "We tended to want the readers' experience at
>>>>>>>>> the center," are you saying anything different than saying "I want the text
>>>>>>>>> at the center," the reader reading the text? The question interests me
>>>>>>>>> because in my essay The Peripheral Space of Photography, I assert that what
>>>>>>>>> is important in a photograph is not the photographer's focus (framing), but
>>>>>>>>> what escapes that framing. The real dialogue occurs between the
>>>>>>>>> watcher of the photograph and what is in front of the lens (human or a
>>>>>>>>> landscape, etc.). If, as I think you are to saying, it is the reader (and
>>>>>>>>> not purely the text), then even the "reveries" the reader builds around the
>>>>>>>>> text reading it become part of it. Is that not so?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Logical" was an unfortunate choice of words, on my part. I am
>>>>>>>>> more interested in the distinction between predicated idea (therefore
>>>>>>>>> fixed) and thought as process (therefore movement). One can have thought
>>>>>>>>> and/in movement (that's what Eda is). In that way, thought is sensual.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "So if there's an "exchange" it's a mutual bending (which might
>>>>>>>>> be way too mutually disruptive to warrant being called a "synthesis").
>>>>>>>>> Maybe that's more like the relationship between a 'dialect' & an 'official'
>>>>>>>>> language — [and by the way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a
>>>>>>>>> synthesis]?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, mutually bending and disruptive, not a synthesis. That's what
>>>>>>>>> a true, transforming translation does, bends, alters both languages,
>>>>>>>>> discovers potentialities in them. Walter Benjamin does see a synthesis in
>>>>>>>>> the process when he writes that in a translation "A" does not move to "B"
>>>>>>>>> but both move to a third place "C ," which he calls "ideal
>>>>>>>>> language." Some people believe Benjamin was being a "poet" (poet in the
>>>>>>>>> pejorative sense) here. "Ideal language" is a mystical fantasy. I am not
>>>>>>>>> one of them.  I believe it is part of the core of his very original concept
>>>>>>>>> of translation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "... doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not necessarily. I believe in an art or poetry of continuous
>>>>>>>>> dialectic. The Talmud, where the interpretations of  a holy passage are
>>>>>>>>> never resolved and remain always multiple, is such a text.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be continued (inviting others to join).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Andrews <
>>>>>>>>> andrews at fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all — finally figured out a little more about the interface
>>>>>>>>>> [one of my least favorite words] & receiving messages intriguingly dated
>>>>>>>>>> many hours ahead — from Australia — so it's already Thanksgiving the day
>>>>>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, on Thanksgiving [with recent political events, e.g. the
>>>>>>>>>> trumpocalypse, having disrupted so many things I was hoping for & hoping to
>>>>>>>>>> give thanks for], Murat, for your Intro.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice to think of the Poetry Project as a site for adventurous
>>>>>>>>>> exploring — certainly it's where I first had a chance to talk with you
>>>>>>>>>> (often about matters political, Turkey, etc. — I started going there, &
>>>>>>>>>> getting to read every couple years, right after arriving in NYC in 1975, to
>>>>>>>>>> take a job as a Political Science professor [American Imperialism my
>>>>>>>>>> specialty] wch lasted 38 of the 41 years since).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The so-called 'Language Poets' actually tended to question
>>>>>>>>>> whether the consensus 'New York School/Beat' styles honored at the PProject
>>>>>>>>>> was really still devoted to adventurously "exploring the outer limits and
>>>>>>>>>> possibilities" of the medium: our aesthetics had taken shape in the early
>>>>>>>>>> to mid 1970s, mostly outside of NY & hashed out in the mail rather than
>>>>>>>>>> face to face in any community 'scene'. We did want to focus attention on
>>>>>>>>>> language itself as the medium, but I'm not ready to embrace some of your
>>>>>>>>>> characterization:  words & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to
>>>>>>>>>> organize them in other ways beside what they were pointing to (which was
>>>>>>>>>> too often, for us, the author's personalizing experience or expressiveness
>>>>>>>>>> or traditional lyric expectations). We tended to want the readers'
>>>>>>>>>> experience at the center — which cuts against some of this binary of yours
>>>>>>>>>> about the sensual, movement-based vs. logical aspects of language. If I had
>>>>>>>>>> to choose sides there, I'd always go with movement & the sensory, as a way
>>>>>>>>>> to 'volatilize' & 'capacitate' its potential readers; my own writing
>>>>>>>>>> certainly doesn't get much acclaim for being "logical". But I'd rather step
>>>>>>>>>> outside any polemical wrangling about the poetry we do & keep things
>>>>>>>>>> focused on the digital front:  for instance, whether an online presentation
>>>>>>>>>> tends to help or hinder the kinds of reading that put movement & the senses
>>>>>>>>>> in the forefront.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On your question:  I don't think that verbal language is
>>>>>>>>>> basically a self-referential system; instead, it seems more like a messy
>>>>>>>>>> hybrid. And so is what happens via the computer & the web: this may be
>>>>>>>>>> distinctive as a linguistic/communicative arrangement, but that's not
>>>>>>>>>> exactly what I see in the idea of it creating its own system. So if there's
>>>>>>>>>> an "exchange" it's a mutual bending (which might be way too mutually
>>>>>>>>>> disruptive to warrant being called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more like
>>>>>>>>>> the relationship between a 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by the
>>>>>>>>>> way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> I have known these week's guest participants or been familiar
>>>>>>>>>>> with their works for years. They have all been, directly or indirectly,
>>>>>>>>>>> part of the Poetry Project poetry and art community. A spirit of adventure
>>>>>>>>>>> exploring the outer limits and possibilities each of his or her own media
>>>>>>>>>>> that has been the characteristic of the place since 1960's for fifty years
>>>>>>>>>>> permeates all of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I met Chris Funkhauser first in 1994 during a Poetry Project
>>>>>>>>>>> symposium on "Revolutionary Poetry." He and his friend Belle Gironde --both
>>>>>>>>>>> University of Albany students at the time-- along with three other young
>>>>>>>>>>> people had organized an "unofficial" workshop on "Poetry and Technology"
>>>>>>>>>>> that, if I remember correctly, had set up its tent out in the garden of the
>>>>>>>>>>> church. I was a member of the final panel that presented overviews of the
>>>>>>>>>>> symposium. As part of my preparation, I visited the workshop. I was so
>>>>>>>>>>> struck by what they were doing, by the spirit of Dada in their manifesto of
>>>>>>>>>>> the virtual --yes, the possibilities of a virtual poetry was infused with
>>>>>>>>>>> Dada mojo at the time-- that I spent a final, significant portion of my
>>>>>>>>>>> talk on that workshop. I felt what the workshop was saying contained a
>>>>>>>>>>> significant portion of the revolutionary spirit the symposium was searching
>>>>>>>>>>> for. Chris and I remained friends ever since. Interestingly, Bruce Andrews,
>>>>>>>>>>> the second guest participant this week, was another member of that panel
>>>>>>>>>>> also.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here are two passages from "Takes or Mis-takes from the
>>>>>>>>>>> Revolutionary Symposium, The Poetry Project, May 5-8, 1994," the second
>>>>>>>>>>> being its ending. The talk consisted of quotations from the symposium
>>>>>>>>>>> (peppered with my reactions):
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "What's the difference between God and virtual God?"
>>>>>>>>>>> "Virtual God is real." It's the software programer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "From The Poetry and Technology workshop: 'Give free shit to
>>>>>>>>>>> lure them…. Commodity lives," Eric Swensen, the 'Enema' of Necro Enema
>>>>>>>>>>> Amalgamated, producers of the manifesto BLAM!"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Andrew was with Charles Bernstein the co-editor of the
>>>>>>>>>>> ground breaking poetry magazine L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E which, as the "=" signs in
>>>>>>>>>>> the title implies, ushered a new attitude towards poetry and language.
>>>>>>>>>>> Letters, words relate more to each other than to a referential point
>>>>>>>>>>> outside. The result was the transforming (and influential on younger poets)
>>>>>>>>>>> poetry movement Language School of which Bruce is a key member. As a poet,
>>>>>>>>>>> I have had serious disagreements with strict (in my view, almost
>>>>>>>>>>> fundementalist) take on language the movement embodies. I come from the
>>>>>>>>>>> East (Turkey). Though equally exploring, my view of language is different,
>>>>>>>>>>> more sensual, based on movement than logic. I tried to bring these
>>>>>>>>>>> qualities to English language and American poetry though my concept of Eda.
>>>>>>>>>>> On the other, I must admit the poetry of my friends in the States
>>>>>>>>>>> inevitably bent the direction of my work. I believe Eda will do, and is
>>>>>>>>>>> already doing, the same even though though the effect is not totally
>>>>>>>>>>> visible yet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is one question I  would like very much Bruce to explore,
>>>>>>>>>>> if at all possible, among many others. The computer seems to create its own
>>>>>>>>>>> linguistic/communicative system. If verbal language also is basically a
>>>>>>>>>>> self-referential system, how do you see the possibility of exchange between
>>>>>>>>>>> these two entities? Is it at all, possible? If so, what has to bend to
>>>>>>>>>>> accommodate the other? In other words, is the relationship towards
>>>>>>>>>>> synthesis or always dialectical?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I saw Sally Silvers dance for the first time years ago during a
>>>>>>>>>>> Poetry Project New Years' Day Marathon. I was immediate struck by the
>>>>>>>>>>> uniqueness and originality of her dance. Over the years I tried to answer
>>>>>>>>>>> that question because I felt it said something important, not only about
>>>>>>>>>>> but beyond dance. Gradually, a picture emerged. Even watching avant-garde
>>>>>>>>>>> or "experimental" dancers, I always feel that their movements are rehashed,
>>>>>>>>>>> coming out of a repertoire of established avant grade movements. There was
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing of that in Sally Silver's dancing. Every movement was itself,
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing  more, nothing less. The movements had a solidity, embodying the
>>>>>>>>>>> reality of gravity that run through them and shaped them. That earth bound
>>>>>>>>>>> clarity was a thrilling thing to see. I am looking forward to what she has
>>>>>>>>>>> to say about dance or anything else.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All the Empyre members, welcome to the fourth week.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Dr. Christopher T. Funkhouser
>>>>>>>> Program Director, Communication and Media
>>>>>>>> Department of Humanities
>>>>>>>> New Jersey Institute of Technology
>>>>>>>> University Heights
>>>>>>>> Newark, NJ 07102
>>>>>>>> http://web.njit.edu/~funkhous
>>>>>>>> funkhous at njit.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> empyre forum
>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>
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