[-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Murat Nemet-Nejat]

I will when I am back from Asia where I am now on January 10, 2017.

Murat

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Bruce Andrews <andrews at fordham.edu> wrote:

> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
> Signing off as well, thanks to Murat & Sally & Christopher & responders
> Posted a final piece of poetry yesterday; drop me a line to stay in touch.
> Bruce
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> Ok, signing off on our week of empyre at 11:30 pm.
>> Thanks Murat for inviting  me and thanks to all for the exchanges.
>>
>> Sally
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <muratnn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>> Hi Sally,
>>>
>>> "... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in
>>> creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for
>>> instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'.  It made
>>> me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
>>> planet disasters."
>>>
>>> Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images
>>> (or languages) in the web with the reality behind them.
>>>
>>> "Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same
>>> danger.
>>>
>>>
>>> "... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film
>>> (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)...."
>>>
>>> That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film
>>> seems to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.
>>>
>>> Ciao,
>>> Murat
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>> Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
>>>> reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
>>>> and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
>>>> visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
>>>> go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
>>>> Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
>>>> longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
>>>> End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose
>>>> abstractions are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure
>>>> abstract visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the
>>>> words and have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference
>>>> between visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in
>>>> which I find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.
>>>>
>>>> I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.
>>>> It always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of
>>>> the expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional
>>>> instrument.  Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound
>>>> is the same as playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear
>>>> live acoustic or plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for
>>>> that. But when it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want
>>>> something visual to go along with it and thus a genre was born.
>>>>
>>>> Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
>>>> situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
>>>> 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?
>>>>
>>>>  I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by
>>>> Kay Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
>>>> words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
>>>> with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
>>>> didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
>>>> design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
>>>> Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
>>>> to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
>>>> this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
>>>> what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
>>>> gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
>>>> so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
>>>> remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
>>>> because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).
>>>>
>>>> Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
>>>> volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
>>>> Foucaultian sense?
>>>>
>>>> Sally
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and
>>>>> Chris sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual
>>>>> Reality.  I discovered that most of the universities that currently have
>>>>> departments devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as
>>>>> their social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they
>>>>> are most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
>>>>> actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
>>>>> flesh'.  It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more
>>>>> to human or planet disasters.  Just like photographs can shock at first but
>>>>> then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses.  Could it make
>>>>> it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide
>>>>> disasters are brought into our living room?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an aside, but I'm going to explore the possibilities of a
>>>>> movement residency with one of these departments.  Can you imagine feeling
>>>>> like you are dancing with Fred Astaire, or in the movie, The Red Shoes,
>>>>> which has some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a
>>>>> fan of ballet particularly).  Or being in one of my dances? Apparently it's
>>>>> really easy to get motion sickness from VR so I'm curious about
>>>>> advancements on that front too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Craig,  Happy to have a link to explore & connect with.  I'm
>>>>>> aware that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest.  Something to
>>>>>> overcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper <csaper at umbc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>> Sally
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of
>>>>>>> movement notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking
>>>>>>> for, but not finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt
>>>>>>> body”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [
>>>>>>> https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/ ] … work
>>>>>>> that uses Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier
>>>>>>> generation of experimental animators — especially Sky David?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is
>>>>>>> probably stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want
>>>>>>> the “documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use
>>>>>>> dancers to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to
>>>>>>> say — it is too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical
>>>>>>> essay into “dance-poems”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers <silversdance at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>> Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths.  But...
>>>>>>>  hope everyone  who celebrated had a great one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and
>>>>>>> music projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a  dance
>>>>>>> piece (right after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns  to make the connection
>>>>>>> between nuns who were the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god
>>>>>>> and celibacy in order to gain access to education & to avoid forced
>>>>>>> pregnancy and motherhood — & the cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based
>>>>>>> dualities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that
>>>>>>> Chris mentions as being so influential for him as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my dance (*Strike Me Lighting*) the first half was devoted to
>>>>>>> nuns and the 2nd half to cyborgs.  I remember it was much easier to set in
>>>>>>> motion nuns than it was cyborgs.  All the kneeling, contemplating,
>>>>>>> in-fighting, and undercover sex, so to speak, had more oomph than bodies
>>>>>>> with mechanical parts.  The stiff robot move gets old fast.  I ended up
>>>>>>> having to use a lot of photographs from books on cyborgs and spatializing
>>>>>>> the moves with things like star constellation floor patterns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I find this to be true online as well.  The body may be the last
>>>>>>> thing to be made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated
>>>>>>> form. Unless you think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I
>>>>>>> don't as they mostly seem like a translation of the body into something to
>>>>>>> sell music or glamorize some other product. Of course there are some
>>>>>>> exceptions to this as when the form of video and the form of dance/movement
>>>>>>> make a new concept -- when the language of each is not diminished. But most
>>>>>>> of the dance on film or via computer that I've seen seems like
>>>>>>> documentation or romanticized body angles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live.  (well maybe
>>>>>>> toddlers & animals get a pass).  There is not yet a way to transform the
>>>>>>> most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video
>>>>>>> action.There is clumsy software that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly
>>>>>>> works with given movement combinations and vocabulary and allows you to
>>>>>>> recombine or select parts of the body, but it's not that easy to use to
>>>>>>> make something interesting for the computer itself; it's mostly a tool for
>>>>>>> rehearsal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and
>>>>>>> digital art could be without it seeming gimmicky.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered
>>>>>>> electronically by dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting
>>>>>>> light/sensor points on the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very
>>>>>>> pretty), but so far I have not seen or heard of anything that would allow
>>>>>>> actual interaction or that makes chance or algorithms  very available or
>>>>>>> interesting.  I'm waiting for virtual reality to at least make it more real
>>>>>>> and felt for the viewer because 3-d has been somewhat of a bust.  I have
>>>>>>> hopes for all these things but as of yet, nothing is as appealing to me as
>>>>>>> actually working on the live body.  The computer is a luddite when it comes
>>>>>>> to dance/choreography.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up
>>>>>>> — mostly for managing the business side of a dance school!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies,
>>>>>>> but I still remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that
>>>>>>> registers gravity  I'm waiting though; I'm eager for more knowledge on the
>>>>>>> possibilities of digital dance, in the way so many possibilities have been
>>>>>>> organized for digital poetry/language and digital music/sound.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sally Silvers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>> Chris, first, happy Thanksgiving to you and to all the others, at
>>>>>>>> least the people living in the United States. Also thank you for your
>>>>>>>> thoughtful answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, for a short moment at least, the idea of making Empyre like a
>>>>>>>> 1990's listserv was intentional, ideas coming from different directions,
>>>>>>>> the excitement of not knowing where to turn next, etc. Those lists were
>>>>>>>> meandering, argumentative, even sometimes hostile; but very productive. My
>>>>>>>> purpose has been to project a sense of what we miss, what the web has
>>>>>>>> become.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in
>>>>>>>> fascinating ways full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became
>>>>>>>> somewhat of a technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction
>>>>>>>> (others definitely did), though not anymore..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The contradiction (in a positive sense) I am referring to is not in
>>>>>>>> your involvement in technology as a poet. After all, all of us as artists
>>>>>>>> or poets use technology. in some way or another, be it a pencil or a
>>>>>>>> computer. Rather, I am referring to, as I see it, an interesting
>>>>>>>> contradiction (or tension) in your ideals/impulses. On the one hand,
>>>>>>>> reading your *Prehistoric Digital Poetry*. I sensed a great
>>>>>>>> interest in developing the capabilities of the computer progressively to
>>>>>>>> create a poetry *unique to the medium* from word to image to
>>>>>>>> movement to sound, and their combination  --finally creating a poetic form
>>>>>>>> which is both absorbing and ephemeral and can be read practically in
>>>>>>>> endless ways depending on the choices the "reader" makes. In that
>>>>>>>> synthesis, the digital poem resembles very much a computer game where
>>>>>>>> words/letters are one element. Towards the end of the book, I remember
>>>>>>>> asking myself what differentiates that digital poem from a game (not a
>>>>>>>> play). I don't think I found a satisfactory answer in the book.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is basically that contradiction I am referring to. Perhaps,
>>>>>>>> since the writing of that book, you have found an answer and, therefore,
>>>>>>>> see no contradiction. A sense of play has always been part of poetry, but
>>>>>>>> is a game the same thing?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that
>>>>>>>> make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple levels
>>>>>>>> (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software
>>>>>>>> standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here I think we differ. Failure for me is a residue that remains in
>>>>>>>> the poem after it is "finished." It is integral to the kind of poetry or
>>>>>>>> poetics I write. Failure or success of communication, obtaining or failing
>>>>>>>> to obtain rights are different. I know for you the ephemeral quality of
>>>>>>>> internet sites or changing computer software are major issues. They are
>>>>>>>> what make digital poetry (or any digital art) temporary, subject to time.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps that is the failure that haunts digital works. I don't know. You
>>>>>>>> tell me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a
>>>>>>>> general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen
>>>>>>>> on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
>>>>>>>> be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I understand correctly, the basic creative part of a digital
>>>>>>>> work occurs in the programming of the software where the visionary or
>>>>>>>> poetic impulse comes into play. If the original idea changes, the program
>>>>>>>> has to be altered "on the fly";  or, I assume, sometimes the idea is bent
>>>>>>>> by the exigencies of the program. If so, how does the idea of perfection
>>>>>>>> come into play? In what sense is the code always perfect?  How do you know?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... there are ways to organize expression & project material
>>>>>>>> without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s “perfection”.
>>>>>>>> These tools are there to help us do what we want..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ☺so the code is perfect and imperfect (or perfect with loop holes).
>>>>>>>> I like that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... the coding allows the sound-image-text to be rendered
>>>>>>>> improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an instrument, or speak, and have
>>>>>>>> the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger onscreen or audible events...."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you determine the triggered on screen or audible events are
>>>>>>>> random? Do you mean it feels random to the viewer/listener?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... Plus, programs like javascript enable impromptu, interactive
>>>>>>>> database stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot but project a
>>>>>>>> sense of spontaneity and uniqueness..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are I think touching a very crucial issue. "A sense of
>>>>>>>> spontaneity and uniqueness" is an effect, basically a rhetorical trope. It
>>>>>>>> can be premeditated, created through hard labor or through a code.
>>>>>>>> "Improvisation" is an act. Something is either improvised or not. For
>>>>>>>> instance, in his performances, Taylor is improvising, not creating a sense
>>>>>>>> of it. Doesn't the difference matter?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... he idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human &
>>>>>>>> machine, made (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that
>>>>>>>> uses digital media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. ...."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris, here we completely agree with each other. My poem *The
>>>>>>>> Spiritual Life of Replicants* is precisely such a work. In Blade
>>>>>>>> Runner --the film on which the poem is built (by the way, Blade Runner is
>>>>>>>> the last Hollywood film that uses no digital special effects)-- the
>>>>>>>> ultimate perfect code that no technology can break or contravene is
>>>>>>>> mortality, to which even the cyborgs are subject.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris, thank you again for your thoughtful responses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be continued...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Funkhouser, Christopher T. <
>>>>>>>> christopher.t.funkhouser at njit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Murat,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I couldn’t delve into anything on Thanksgiving, & hope everyone
>>>>>>>>> had a blessed day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, let’s see… this discussion reminds me of being on listservs
>>>>>>>>> in the 90s: lots to think about, hard to keep up with everything, &
>>>>>>>>> difficult to elaborate as much as one would like, or could in a
>>>>>>>>> face-to-face situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating
>>>>>>>>> ways full of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a
>>>>>>>>> technologist, I might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely
>>>>>>>>> did), though not anymore.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *But how often starting a work of art do we no where we are going
>>>>>>>>> (at least the kind of work I assume interests you and me)? We evolve,
>>>>>>>>> basically try to discover the work. In that way, intention is not a useful
>>>>>>>>> concept for me. To me failure has to do with gaps in a work, loose or
>>>>>>>>> unexplained parts though the work is presented as complete. In that way,
>>>>>>>>> failure is related more to a lack of total answer.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Discovering the work is a good way to describe what usually
>>>>>>>>> happens, but working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a
>>>>>>>>> general vision as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen
>>>>>>>>> on-the-fly. In this realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can
>>>>>>>>> be/is extended if to many big changes have to be made on the fly. If I
>>>>>>>>> don’t set up some sort of general intention, though (as in a yoga class),
>>>>>>>>> I’d likely have problems! Failure for me usually has to do with tech
>>>>>>>>> issues—esp. those that make a work inaccessible, which happen way to often
>>>>>>>>> & on multiple levels (e.g., hosting, .www permissions, dll updates, changes
>>>>>>>>> in OS & software standards (i.e., Flash/Shockwave))
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *What is interesting in what you do is that, while you "accept"
>>>>>>>>> the absolute perfection of the code, a lot of the artists that interest you
>>>>>>>>> and you get deeply involved with, including your own projects, are open
>>>>>>>>> ended, improvisational, "evanescent" so to speak, such as Cecil Tayloror
>>>>>>>>> the wonderful piece of music "Wedge" you linked us to in your post.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do try to keep an open perspective on things, & working with
>>>>>>>>> programming/design software there are ways to organize expression & project
>>>>>>>>> material without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s
>>>>>>>>> “perfection”. These tools are there to help us do what we want, & there are
>>>>>>>>> ways to use them that allow invention & expansion rather than confine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *In what relation do you see the perfection of the digital code
>>>>>>>>> (its "unforgiving" divine reality :) ) and your improvisational aesthetics?
>>>>>>>>> I know in in your book you say that the poetry created digitally is
>>>>>>>>> essentially ephemeral, and the artist must acknowledge it. *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I definitely accept ephemerality as a given, & expect most digital
>>>>>>>>> works—if not cared for/maintained with some dedication—will become unusable
>>>>>>>>> somewhere down the line (has already happened, to me & others--a lot),
>>>>>>>>> which in many cases is really unfortunate. I see it as part of the
>>>>>>>>> conditions of postmodern poetry. David Antin's skywriting piece disappeared
>>>>>>>>> even more quickly!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> fwiw, the thing about the work I’m doing now (for the past 5 years
>>>>>>>>> or so), with sound and image, is that the coding allows the
>>>>>>>>> sound-image-text to be rendered improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play
>>>>>>>>> an instrument, or speak, and have the sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger
>>>>>>>>> onscreen or audible events. Once I discovered how to make this happen,
>>>>>>>>> making improvised digital poems became possible. Plus, programs like
>>>>>>>>> javascript enable impromptu, interactive database stylings that may not be
>>>>>>>>> improvised on-the-spot but project a sense of spontaneity and
>>>>>>>>> uniqueness—they seem improvised (esp. if the user/viewer is allowed to
>>>>>>>>> input content). &, btw, I did end up posting some of the new work I've
>>>>>>>>> done, mapping voice to instrumentation, a couple of days ago at
>>>>>>>>> https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/page-33-infiltration (another
>>>>>>>>> approach, where instrument drives animation in performance is up at
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PkkqOzCf4 or
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si30Iajz4Zs (a collab with Amy &
>>>>>>>>> Sophia Sobers, whose projections do not appear unfortunately)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "I was thinking about glitch after my post yesterday, but even in
>>>>>>>>> something that is glitch (in any form), the code functions properly.
>>>>>>>>> usually these works are aberrations imposed by composer, hardware, or
>>>>>>>>> software. but it is the surface that contains something
>>>>>>>>> unexpected/distorted. the code is *able *to do what it is
>>>>>>>>> instructed/informed to do. glitch is a great cyborgian form, whether
>>>>>>>>> intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To me, Chris, the above passage reminds me of Medieval (Christian)
>>>>>>>>> discourse on God and the existence of evil-- [image: ☺] OK! But
>>>>>>>>> the stakes are not so elevated. I was just rambling on, probably
>>>>>>>>> ineffectively, a certain topic. As far as making stuff goes, I never think
>>>>>>>>> of myself or anyone else as taking on the role of god, though I do like the
>>>>>>>>> highlighted passage of your post below!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> God's design is often inscrutable, but always there. Humanity can
>>>>>>>>> only experience the surface --and sees evil (unexpected/distorted): "What
>>>>>>>>> is the difference between God and virtual God?" "Virtual God is
>>>>>>>>> real." It's the software programmer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Could you elaborate on the following sentence: "glitch is a great
>>>>>>>>> cyborgian form, whether intentionally created, or not.."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure. One of the first “theorists” I ever read was Donna Haraway,
>>>>>>>>> in 1991 when we were both living in Santa Cruz. Her Manifesto about
>>>>>>>>> Simians, Cyborgs, & Women really knocked me out & I kind of took it to
>>>>>>>>> heart & mind. The idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human &
>>>>>>>>> machine, made (makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that
>>>>>>>>> uses digital media non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. That was the
>>>>>>>>> reference point. Glitch can of course be done non-digitally (with scissors,
>>>>>>>>> paint, arms, *quod libet*) so it’s not exclusive to computers. I
>>>>>>>>> know a few people who, using software (as well as output manipulation) do
>>>>>>>>> intentional glitch work; othertimes, it happens by accident & comes to
>>>>>>>>> eyes, ears, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’m sure I didn’t say enough, or address everything, but that’s it
>>>>>>>>> for the moment. Bests, CF
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Bruce, you have hooked up with the Project ten years earlier than
>>>>>>>>>> me. I had just returned from living in London for almost two years (and I
>>>>>>>>>> had said to my wife Karen that if I don't see another beautiful green park
>>>>>>>>>> in my life I'll be happy). I wanted to go to a poetry event in New York. It
>>>>>>>>>> was Wednesday, and at the Project Paul Auster was presenting his
>>>>>>>>>> anthology of French poetry that he had edited with multiple readers (to me
>>>>>>>>>> the most memorable was Armand Schwerner reading his Michaux
>>>>>>>>>> translations). That was it. I became friends with Bob Rosenthal
>>>>>>>>>> and Simon Pettet who had introduced Paul, and we created The
>>>>>>>>>> Committee for International Poetry. That was another adventure.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you about the ups and down of the Project. We all
>>>>>>>>>> heard our share of boring stuff there. I did doze off occasionally but the
>>>>>>>>>> place always seemed to come through. A lot of poets, artists came from
>>>>>>>>>> different parts of the States and the world and learned from and
>>>>>>>>>> collaborated with each other.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What the Project has been doing is what the Web is doing now. I
>>>>>>>>>> have had long term collaborations with artists over the years whom I have
>>>>>>>>>> never met. That is the huge positive of the digital world.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "We did want to focus attention on language itself as the
>>>>>>>>>> medium, but I'm not ready to embrace some of your characterization:  words
>>>>>>>>>> & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize them in other
>>>>>>>>>> ways beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for us, the
>>>>>>>>>> author's personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric
>>>>>>>>>> expectations). We tended to want the readers' experience at the center —
>>>>>>>>>> which cuts against some of this binary of yours about the sensual,
>>>>>>>>>> movement-based vs. logical aspects of language"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bruce, when you say "We tended to want the readers' experience
>>>>>>>>>> at the center," are you saying anything different than saying "I want the
>>>>>>>>>> text at the center," the reader reading the text? The question interests me
>>>>>>>>>> because in my essay The Peripheral Space of Photography, I assert that what
>>>>>>>>>> is important in a photograph is not the photographer's focus (framing), but
>>>>>>>>>> what escapes that framing. The real dialogue occurs between the
>>>>>>>>>> watcher of the photograph and what is in front of the lens (human or a
>>>>>>>>>> landscape, etc.). If, as I think you are to saying, it is the reader (and
>>>>>>>>>> not purely the text), then even the "reveries" the reader builds around the
>>>>>>>>>> text reading it become part of it. Is that not so?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Logical" was an unfortunate choice of words, on my part. I am
>>>>>>>>>> more interested in the distinction between predicated idea (therefore
>>>>>>>>>> fixed) and thought as process (therefore movement). One can have thought
>>>>>>>>>> and/in movement (that's what Eda is). In that way, thought is sensual.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "So if there's an "exchange" it's a mutual bending (which might
>>>>>>>>>> be way too mutually disruptive to warrant being called a "synthesis").
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe that's more like the relationship between a 'dialect' & an 'official'
>>>>>>>>>> language — [and by the way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a
>>>>>>>>>> synthesis]?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, mutually bending and disruptive, not a synthesis. That's
>>>>>>>>>> what a true, transforming translation does, bends, alters both languages,
>>>>>>>>>> discovers potentialities in them. Walter Benjamin does see a synthesis in
>>>>>>>>>> the process when he writes that in a translation "A" does not move to "B"
>>>>>>>>>> but both move to a third place "C ," which he calls "ideal
>>>>>>>>>> language." Some people believe Benjamin was being a "poet" (poet in the
>>>>>>>>>> pejorative sense) here. "Ideal language" is a mystical fantasy. I am not
>>>>>>>>>> one of them.  I believe it is part of the core of his very original concept
>>>>>>>>>> of translation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "... doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not necessarily. I believe in an art or poetry of continuous
>>>>>>>>>> dialectic. The Talmud, where the interpretations of  a holy passage are
>>>>>>>>>> never resolved and remain always multiple, is such a text.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To be continued (inviting others to join).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Andrews <
>>>>>>>>>> andrews at fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all — finally figured out a little more about the interface
>>>>>>>>>>> [one of my least favorite words] & receiving messages intriguingly dated
>>>>>>>>>>> many hours ahead — from Australia — so it's already Thanksgiving the day
>>>>>>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, on Thanksgiving [with recent political events, e.g. the
>>>>>>>>>>> trumpocalypse, having disrupted so many things I was hoping for & hoping to
>>>>>>>>>>> give thanks for], Murat, for your Intro.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice to think of the Poetry Project as a site for adventurous
>>>>>>>>>>> exploring — certainly it's where I first had a chance to talk with you
>>>>>>>>>>> (often about matters political, Turkey, etc. — I started going there, &
>>>>>>>>>>> getting to read every couple years, right after arriving in NYC in 1975, to
>>>>>>>>>>> take a job as a Political Science professor [American Imperialism my
>>>>>>>>>>> specialty] wch lasted 38 of the 41 years since).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The so-called 'Language Poets' actually tended to question
>>>>>>>>>>> whether the consensus 'New York School/Beat' styles honored at the PProject
>>>>>>>>>>> was really still devoted to adventurously "exploring the outer limits and
>>>>>>>>>>> possibilities" of the medium: our aesthetics had taken shape in the early
>>>>>>>>>>> to mid 1970s, mostly outside of NY & hashed out in the mail rather than
>>>>>>>>>>> face to face in any community 'scene'. We did want to focus attention on
>>>>>>>>>>> language itself as the medium, but I'm not ready to embrace some of your
>>>>>>>>>>> characterization:  words & letters are not non-referential, but we liked to
>>>>>>>>>>> organize them in other ways beside what they were pointing to (which was
>>>>>>>>>>> too often, for us, the author's personalizing experience or expressiveness
>>>>>>>>>>> or traditional lyric expectations). We tended to want the readers'
>>>>>>>>>>> experience at the center — which cuts against some of this binary of yours
>>>>>>>>>>> about the sensual, movement-based vs. logical aspects of language. If I had
>>>>>>>>>>> to choose sides there, I'd always go with movement & the sensory, as a way
>>>>>>>>>>> to 'volatilize' & 'capacitate' its potential readers; my own writing
>>>>>>>>>>> certainly doesn't get much acclaim for being "logical". But I'd rather step
>>>>>>>>>>> outside any polemical wrangling about the poetry we do & keep things
>>>>>>>>>>> focused on the digital front:  for instance, whether an online presentation
>>>>>>>>>>> tends to help or hinder the kinds of reading that put movement & the senses
>>>>>>>>>>> in the forefront.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On your question:  I don't think that verbal language is
>>>>>>>>>>> basically a self-referential system; instead, it seems more like a messy
>>>>>>>>>>> hybrid. And so is what happens via the computer & the web: this may be
>>>>>>>>>>> distinctive as a linguistic/communicative arrangement, but that's not
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly what I see in the idea of it creating its own system. So if there's
>>>>>>>>>>> an "exchange" it's a mutual bending (which might be way too mutually
>>>>>>>>>>> disruptive to warrant being called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more like
>>>>>>>>>>> the relationship between a 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by the
>>>>>>>>>>> way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <
>>>>>>>>>>> muratnn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have known these week's guest participants or been familiar
>>>>>>>>>>>> with their works for years. They have all been, directly or indirectly,
>>>>>>>>>>>> part of the Poetry Project poetry and art community. A spirit of adventure
>>>>>>>>>>>> exploring the outer limits and possibilities each of his or her own media
>>>>>>>>>>>> that has been the characteristic of the place since 1960's for fifty years
>>>>>>>>>>>> permeates all of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I met Chris Funkhauser first in 1994 during a Poetry Project
>>>>>>>>>>>> symposium on "Revolutionary Poetry." He and his friend Belle Gironde --both
>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Albany students at the time-- along with three other young
>>>>>>>>>>>> people had organized an "unofficial" workshop on "Poetry and Technology"
>>>>>>>>>>>> that, if I remember correctly, had set up its tent out in the garden of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> church. I was a member of the final panel that presented overviews of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> symposium. As part of my preparation, I visited the workshop. I was so
>>>>>>>>>>>> struck by what they were doing, by the spirit of Dada in their manifesto of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the virtual --yes, the possibilities of a virtual poetry was infused with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dada mojo at the time-- that I spent a final, significant portion of my
>>>>>>>>>>>> talk on that workshop. I felt what the workshop was saying contained a
>>>>>>>>>>>> significant portion of the revolutionary spirit the symposium was searching
>>>>>>>>>>>> for. Chris and I remained friends ever since. Interestingly, Bruce Andrews,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the second guest participant this week, was another member of that panel
>>>>>>>>>>>> also.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here are two passages from "Takes or Mis-takes from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Revolutionary Symposium, The Poetry Project, May 5-8, 1994," the second
>>>>>>>>>>>> being its ending. The talk consisted of quotations from the symposium
>>>>>>>>>>>> (peppered with my reactions):
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "What's the difference between God and virtual God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Virtual God is real." It's the software programer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "From The Poetry and Technology workshop: 'Give free shit to
>>>>>>>>>>>> lure them…. Commodity lives," Eric Swensen, the 'Enema' of Necro Enema
>>>>>>>>>>>> Amalgamated, producers of the manifesto BLAM!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Andrew was with Charles Bernstein the co-editor of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> ground breaking poetry magazine L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E which, as the "=" signs in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the title implies, ushered a new attitude towards poetry and language.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Letters, words relate more to each other than to a referential point
>>>>>>>>>>>> outside. The result was the transforming (and influential on younger poets)
>>>>>>>>>>>> poetry movement Language School of which Bruce is a key member. As a poet,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had serious disagreements with strict (in my view, almost
>>>>>>>>>>>> fundementalist) take on language the movement embodies. I come from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> East (Turkey). Though equally exploring, my view of language is different,
>>>>>>>>>>>> more sensual, based on movement than logic. I tried to bring these
>>>>>>>>>>>> qualities to English language and American poetry though my concept of Eda.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other, I must admit the poetry of my friends in the States
>>>>>>>>>>>> inevitably bent the direction of my work. I believe Eda will do, and is
>>>>>>>>>>>> already doing, the same even though though the effect is not totally
>>>>>>>>>>>> visible yet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is one question I  would like very much Bruce to explore,
>>>>>>>>>>>> if at all possible, among many others. The computer seems to create its own
>>>>>>>>>>>> linguistic/communicative system. If verbal language also is basically a
>>>>>>>>>>>> self-referential system, how do you see the possibility of exchange between
>>>>>>>>>>>> these two entities? Is it at all, possible? If so, what has to bend to
>>>>>>>>>>>> accommodate the other? In other words, is the relationship towards
>>>>>>>>>>>> synthesis or always dialectical?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I saw Sally Silvers dance for the first time years ago during a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Poetry Project New Years' Day Marathon. I was immediate struck by the
>>>>>>>>>>>> uniqueness and originality of her dance. Over the years I tried to answer
>>>>>>>>>>>> that question because I felt it said something important, not only about
>>>>>>>>>>>> but beyond dance. Gradually, a picture emerged. Even watching avant-garde
>>>>>>>>>>>> or "experimental" dancers, I always feel that their movements are rehashed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> coming out of a repertoire of established avant grade movements. There was
>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing of that in Sally Silver's dancing. Every movement was itself,
>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing  more, nothing less. The movements had a solidity, embodying the
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality of gravity that run through them and shaped them. That earth bound
>>>>>>>>>>>> clarity was a thrilling thing to see. I am looking forward to what she has
>>>>>>>>>>>> to say about dance or anything else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All the Empyre members, welcome to the fourth week.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Murat
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Dr. Christopher T. Funkhouser
>>>>>>>>> Program Director, Communication and Media
>>>>>>>>> Department of Humanities
>>>>>>>>> New Jersey Institute of Technology
>>>>>>>>> University Heights
>>>>>>>>> Newark, NJ 07102
>>>>>>>>> http://web.njit.edu/~funkhous
>>>>>>>>> funkhous at njit.edu
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> empyre forum
>>>>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> empyre forum
>>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> empyre forum
>> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre at lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>
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